American Muslims, why do you support same sex marriage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here it is:
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/quran_and_determination_of_sex.htm

This doesn't even try to answer the question, isn't an egg involved? It explains X Y determination via the sperm, which I think we can all agree is a scientific fact, but a tangential one.

It's pretty silly to dress up the absence of an egg as Quranic prescience. In fact, I don't think the author was even trying to do that, it reads like he couldn't bring himself to go that far, unlike you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here it is:
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/quran_and_determination_of_sex.htm

This doesn't even try to answer the question, isn't an egg involved? It explains X Y determination via the sperm, which I think we can all agree is a scientific fact, but a tangential one.

It's pretty silly to dress up the absence of an egg as Quranic prescience. In fact, I don't think the author was even trying to do that, it reads like he couldn't bring himself to go that far, unlike you.

PS, again and again you seem to assume that we can't think for ourselves, that nobody here has read the Quran or would take the initiative to google the verses in question, and that therefore you can convince everybody with some dude's explanation of chromosomes. I'd urge you to find new ways of discussing these things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A reading on the face of the Quranic text, before heavy "interpretation", says that all of life is determined by the male. There's no egg on Quran. So sex, too, would necessarily be determined by the male.

If you do not understand Quranic Arabic I ask, aren't you are at the mercy of others then, who DO understand it well, to interpret it for you? If you insist on denying the interpretation of scholarly interpretation, simply because the scholars are Muslim, I would advise you get busy and start learning Quranic Arabic yourself instead of continuing to shake your head in denial at every expert opinion I offer.


Here's an NIH article that was published explaining how the Quran described the human embryo to be a mixture of male and female contribution:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/
Int J Health Sci (Qassim). 2009 Jan; 3(1): 103–109.


I have a feeling that you will discount any evidence offered by any Muslim because you inherently distrust Muslim opinion or interpretation. Here is a video link of Keith Moore, who used to be professor emeritus in the Division of Anatomy within the Department of Surgery's Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Toronto, Canada. He has contributed to numerous publications and texts, which include The Developing Human and Before We are Born. Anyone over the age of 45 should remember his textbooks from their college days. Here, he explains that he has not converted to Islam and remains a Christian, but he validates the truth and accuracy of the Quran's explanation of embryology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IObOzMAQ3hI

I think that if you read the articles and view the videos, anyone with an open mind and heart will be intrigued enough to want to seek more information to find out how it is that the Quran knew all this well before science explained it.

[Anonymous]

1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

^^^ I have to say, I'm almost offended by your dishonesty in using that source to try to make a point completely unrelated to what the poor researcher himself intended. And you did it to throw dust in the eyes of DCUM readers. I'm not the cartoon poster of the past few pages, FWIW.

[Anonymous]

Newsflash: DCUM is not a big, fertile field for you to proselytize. On page 12 @ 12:45 you brought all this up by boasting about how accurate the Quran was scientifically (although you were considerably more circumspect there, just mentioning that it talks about sperm and couples, which is accurate.)

You can't expect that nobody will call you out on this stuff. DCUM isn't an easy place for dawwah, in fact dawwah often seems to backfire here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

OR-

1. Maybe you should consider reading the Quran in its ENTIRETY instead of googling a verse here or a verse there because topics are not discussed in order; they are interspersed throughout the Quran. Then if you are unclear, seek an expert in quranic arabic. Find a nonmuslim one if you can not get yourself to trust a muslim one. They do exist. If you still feel uncomfortable trusting the word of a stranger, learn quranic arabic on your own and take a course or two in islamic history. All of this effort is better than running the risk of publishing false, negative, and divisive information about any religion.

2. You wrongly assumed my post was in reply to your immediately preceding question. It was in answer to a previous poster who made the allegation that Islam's explanation on sex determination in embryology is laughable. She or he is mocking the hadith. I provided a less laughable quranic reference that shows that, yes, the quran did mention how a fetus'sex was determined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: DCUM is not a big, fertile field for you to proselytize. On page 12 @ 12:45 you brought all this up by boasting about how accurate the Quran was scientifically (although you were considerably more circumspect there, just mentioning that it talks about sperm and couples, which is accurate.)

You can't expect that nobody will call you out on this stuff. DCUM isn't an easy place for dawwah, in fact dawwah often seems to backfire here.

I did not begin this post to proselytize. Read the first post. It was clearly addressed to Muslims. You interjected here and diverted the direction of the thread, because you simply do not like Islam. So you began publishing negative information about Islam here and crossed your fingers, hoping no Muslim will object. Okay then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A reading on the face of the Quranic text, before heavy "interpretation", says that all of life is determined by the male. There's no egg on Quran. So sex, too, would necessarily be determined by the male.

If you do not understand Quranic Arabic I ask, aren't you are at the mercy of others then, who DO understand it well, to interpret it for you? If you insist on denying the interpretation of scholarly interpretation, simply because the scholars are Muslim, I would advise you get busy and start learning Quranic Arabic yourself instead of continuing to shake your head in denial at every expert opinion I offer.


Here's an NIH article that was published explaining how the Quran described the human embryo to be a mixture of male and female contribution:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/
Int J Health Sci (Qassim). 2009 Jan; 3(1): 103–109.


I have a feeling that you will discount any evidence offered by any Muslim because you inherently distrust Muslim opinion or interpretation. Here is a video link of Keith Moore, who used to be professor emeritus in the Division of Anatomy within the Department of Surgery's Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Toronto, Canada. He has contributed to numerous publications and texts, which include The Developing Human and Before We are Born. Anyone over the age of 45 should remember his textbooks from their college days. Here, he explains that he has not converted to Islam and remains a Christian, but he validates the truth and accuracy of the Quran's explanation of embryology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IObOzMAQ3hI

I think that if you read the articles and view the videos, anyone with an open mind and heart will be intrigued enough to want to seek more information to find out how it is that the Quran knew all this well before science explained it.

Bump
Lest this gets buried and my effectiveness in proselytizing be diminished. Lol lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

OR-

1. Maybe you should consider reading the Quran in its ENTIRETY instead of googling a verse here or a verse there because topics are not discussed in order; they are interspersed throughout the Quran. Then if you are unclear, seek an expert in quranic arabic. Find a nonmuslim one if you can not get yourself to trust a muslim one. They do exist. If you still feel uncomfortable trusting the word of a stranger, learn quranic arabic on your own and take a course or two in islamic history. All of this effort is better than running the risk of publishing false, negative, and divisive information about any religion.

2. You wrongly assumed my post was in reply to your immediately preceding question. It was in answer to a previous poster who made the allegation that Islam's explanation on sex determination in embryology is laughable. She or he is mocking the hadith. I provided a less laughable quranic reference that shows that, yes, the quran did mention how a fetus'sex was determined.

In sum: anybody who questions anything in the Quran should learn Arabic and then read it in its entirety. Otherwise you are an Islamophobe.

Got it.

May I respectfully submit that any book that can't survive translation into other languages is not, in fact, a perfect book. If you can explain why the egg is missing in the Quran, or why it says that the Jews worship Ezra, without insisting that we first learn Arabic, then discussions with you might not be so unproductive and frustrating. May I remind you that you were the one who brought up the sperm thing, so it's not like people here are trying to trap you. They are, however, trying to correct false representations. Telling people to learn Arabic is no answer at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: DCUM is not a big, fertile field for you to proselytize. On page 12 @ 12:45 you brought all this up by boasting about how accurate the Quran was scientifically (although you were considerably more circumspect there, just mentioning that it talks about sperm and couples, which is accurate.)

You can't expect that nobody will call you out on this stuff. DCUM isn't an easy place for dawwah, in fact dawwah often seems to backfire here.

I did not begin this post to proselytize. Read the first post. It was clearly addressed to Muslims. You interjected here and diverted the direction of the thread, because you simply do not like Islam. So you began publishing negative information about Islam here and crossed your fingers, hoping no Muslim will object. Okay then.

Wait, what? You, yes you, brought up conception in the Quran. Anybody can go back to page 12 and find your post there. Other people are simple pointing out that you misrepresented what the Quran actually says. Why, I wonder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: DCUM is not a big, fertile field for you to proselytize. On page 12 @ 12:45 you brought all this up by boasting about how accurate the Quran was scientifically (although you were considerably more circumspect there, just mentioning that it talks about sperm and couples, which is accurate.)

You can't expect that nobody will call you out on this stuff. DCUM isn't an easy place for dawwah, in fact dawwah often seems to backfire here.

I did not begin this post to proselytize. Read the first post. It was clearly addressed to Muslims. You interjected here and diverted the direction of the thread, because you simply do not like Islam. So you began publishing negative information about Islam here and crossed your fingers, hoping no Muslim will object. Okay then.

Wait, what? You, yes you, brought up conception in the Quran. Anybody can go back to page 12 and find your post there. Other people are simple pointing out that you misrepresented what the Quran actually says. Why, I wonder.

This post was meant to be a discussion between or among Muslims about marriage equality. You, yes you, invited yourself here because you dislike or disagree with Islamic views. No need to go to page 12. Go to the very beginning, page 1, post 1. Who was this thread for?

If you, as a non Muslim who can not read the Quran in the language it was revealed, have no understanding of arabic, no knowledge of islamic history, wish to assert that your opinion transcends that of Muslims who follow the faith, or scholars who studied this religion, then I suppose common sense dictates all 1.6 billion followers must defer to you. Will do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

OR-

1. Maybe you should consider reading the Quran in its ENTIRETY instead of googling a verse here or a verse there because topics are not discussed in order; they are interspersed throughout the Quran. Then if you are unclear, seek an expert in quranic arabic. Find a nonmuslim one if you can not get yourself to trust a muslim one. They do exist. If you still feel uncomfortable trusting the word of a stranger, learn quranic arabic on your own and take a course or two in islamic history. All of this effort is better than running the risk of publishing false, negative, and divisive information about any religion.

2. You wrongly assumed my post was in reply to your immediately preceding question. It was in answer to a previous poster who made the allegation that Islam's explanation on sex determination in embryology is laughable. She or he is mocking the hadith. I provided a less laughable quranic reference that shows that, yes, the quran did mention how a fetus'sex was determined.

In sum: anybody who questions anything in the Quran should learn Arabic and then read it in its entirety. Otherwise you are an Islamophobe.

Got it.

May I respectfully submit that any book that can't survive translation into other languages is not, in fact, a perfect book. If you can explain why the egg is missing in the Quran, or why it says that the Jews worship Ezra, without insisting that we first learn Arabic, then discussions with you might not be so unproductive and frustrating. May I remind you that you were the one who brought up the sperm thing, so it's not like people here are trying to trap you. They are, however, trying to correct false representations. Telling people to learn Arabic is no answer at all.

Not only has the book survived translation, it has thrived through translation, despite challenges with that translation.

Researching and studying further is for those who have simply read parts and pieces in English and are befuddled as to how 1.6 billion people express allegiance to it. If it bothers you so much that you must argue each time anyone speaks positively of this faith, do yourself a favor and ask more questions. But do it with a scholar or an imam. It will take you less time to get answers from them.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

Please stick to the topic of this thread which is the attitudes of American Muslims towards same sex marriage. If you want to discuss the literal meaning of the Quran as told through Google searches, please start a thread on that topic.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Everything seems to boil down to: maybe it looks bad in English, but in Arabic the meaning is totally different, trust me. That doesn't even make sense.

2. I have all the respect in the world for Muslim scientists. But that guy was talking about something very different from what you were trying to attribute to him. Insinuating that I'm an Islamophobe won't change the fact that your source isn't claiming what you said he was claiming. We can all read. Your source, who I respect, was making a point about sperm determining gender. Your source was NOT even trying to address the question we're talking about here, namely how the Quran things that all life originates with the male sperm and doesn't mention the EGG.

Do you not get how sperm/gender determination is a different question from Where's the EGG? Or is this all part of an elaborate attempt to throw dust in everybody's eyes?

Please stick to the topic of this thread which is the attitudes of American Muslims towards same sex marriage. If you want to discuss the literal meaning of the Quran as told through Google searches, please start a thread on that topic.

So PP misrepresent Islam any way she wants (go back to page 12 where she started this sidetrack on embryology) and nobody is allowed to challenge her BS? Is that really how things work around here?