How to answer sons who are asking me why so many girls have 'girls are better' merch

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my boys that they can do anything girls can do. I tell them that they are biologically stronger than girls. I tell them that men do all the most dangerous jobs and that the jobs that keep society functioning are mostly male dominated.

Do you tell them that society should be male dominated? Do you tell them that their strength makes them better than girls or less strong boys?

Wow sounds like I hit a nerve!

Sure! Sounds like you’re deliberately raising boys to believe their strength makes them superior to other people. That’s toxic and makes you part of the problem.

DP. If you WANT boys to have a nuanced understanding of what it means that men are on the average stronger than women, it’s sure as sh*t not gonna happen by lecturing them about decentering themselves, expecting them to be superhumanly resistant to negative messaging, and expecting them to accept being judged/excluded based on their gender/color.

Teaching kids about this stuff cannot be left to ditzy leftists whose understanding of human and child psychology goes no deeper than a bumpersticker slogan. Who believe that all we have to do is read our children the Antiracist Baby Book and then they will be perfect activists.

The fact is, the progessive take on teaching values to kids is usually a projection of their own anxiety to make a show of their own moral purity. The focus is all on the adult using the proper moral words, not on how kids actually learn.

I’m the “ditzy leftist” above suggesting white boys de center themselves in this argument. I get that people think that’s lefty ditz stuff - but it’s actually a real piece of advice. People in positions of privilege often think that things apply to them when they do not. The messages about girls’ empowerment have nothing to do with OP’s sons. Telling them “this is not about you, here’s what it’s about” should help them to not feel persecuted by a tshirt. Ongoing conversations are incredibly important so that they can put the stuff they see in context - whether they agree with it or not. Not everything you see and have an emotional response to us about you. Not everything should be treated as though it’s about you. It’s not a ditzy leftist thing to say.

What I have largely seen from people saying “ditzy leftists shouldn’t be the only ones teaching kids about this stuff” is that they disagree with my views on this issue and tend to communicate it by being personally insulting, like above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I tell my boys that they can do anything girls can do. I tell them that they are biologically stronger than girls. I tell them that men do all the most dangerous jobs and that the jobs that keep society functioning are mostly male dominated.

What about the fact that most caregiving jobs (eldercare, childcare, and even healthcare like nursing) are female-dominated? Imagine society if all women went on strike and decided to not take care of any other human? This is one of the most overlooked and undervalued job functions and attitudes like yours are not helping women.

[Anonymous]

The fact is that women have been favored in this country since the 80s isn’t he workforce, media, commercials, schools, etc. the pendulum swung too far and that’s why we’re seeing the rise of “red pill” culture. Society needs to pull back and realize that favoring one group over another is never the answer because there will always be an equal and opposite reaction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2 sons (7 and 10) have been asking me about this a lot. At school and camp a lot of girls have shirts that say various versions of like 'girls are better than boys' (i'm not sure exact wording bc the kids are telling me this second hand, but am vaguely aware through culture ofc). My kids ask 'why would they say this?' Thus far my tactic has been to explain that as yet we have had NO female president in US (I am from the UK so can talk about how we have had female leaders at home) and talk about what kind of message that sends to girls. But my kids are not dumb and their answer is - yes 100% we need a female president but that messaging is still like - girls are BETTER than boys. Any tips on how to talk about this to them? I am failing.

It sounds like your boys are internalizing female empowerment messages. No shirts say things like “girls are better.” They do have positive messages or are sardonic rejections of old stereotypes (a popular shirt in the softball world is something like “you wish you could throw like a girl.”

So maybe tell your sons to stop internalizing things so much — it isn’t about them. Girls have historically been denied opportunities and suffered from lower expectations for roles in society. And so we rightfully encourage them to achieve. Boys don’t really need that same encouragement because they have not been bombarded with messaging throughout history like a boy’s place is in the kitchen, a boy shouldn’t get a formal education, etc etc.

Yes of course they do. Boys live today, not 50 years ago.

I should rephrase that. Boys don’t need that encouragement framed in gender-specific terms. Except maybe in terms of redefining roles they play in domestic situations. Professionally and academic, the drive for boys to achieve is already endemic. There’s no need for equivalent messaging/sloganing the way it exists for girls.

It is not. You've got this wrong. If you are a curious person, you can easily find this information and it shows that boys do not succeed and achieve the way that girls do. It starts young and gets worse.

Bullshit.

Boys are not succeeding academically. Look it up. Then eat your post.

No, sealion. You made the claim. Prove it yourself. Best you’ll find, I predict, is some tropes about “what about the boys?”

Lol @ sealion. There was already a link posted in the thread. Thanks for playing.

That was a single link about education.

Now so now do other metrics for “succeed and achieve.” I’ll wait.

How about the fact that men have higher rates of substance abuse, mental illness, and suicide?

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2019/06/03/men-more-likely-than-women-to-face-substance-use-disorders-and-mental-illness

https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/suicide-data-statistics.html

That is your measure for success and achievement? Men have always been more self-destructive. That has nothing to do with policy or messaging.

How about female representation in key industries: https://economicgraph.linkedin.com/blog/women-are-still-underrepresented-in-leadership-and-the-technology-information-and-media-industry

How about the leadership gap: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/womens-leadership-gap-2/

How about barriers to advancement in the workplace: https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/women-in-the-workplace

How about the gender trade gap: https://www.ey.com/en_gl/global-trade/why-the-gender-gap-in-international-trade-needs-to-close-faster

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my boys that they can do anything girls can do. I tell them that they are biologically stronger than girls. I tell them that men do all the most dangerous jobs and that the jobs that keep society functioning are mostly male dominated.

Do you tell them that society should be male dominated? Do you tell them that their strength makes them better than girls or less strong boys?

Wow sounds like I hit a nerve!

Sure! Sounds like you’re deliberately raising boys to believe their strength makes them superior to other people. That’s toxic and makes you part of the problem.

DP. If you WANT boys to have a nuanced understanding of what it means that men are on the average stronger than women, it’s sure as sh*t not gonna happen by lecturing them about decentering themselves, expecting them to be superhumanly resistant to negative messaging, and expecting them to accept being judged/excluded based on their gender/color.

Teaching kids about this stuff cannot be left to ditzy leftists whose understanding of human and child psychology goes no deeper than a bumpersticker slogan. Who believe that all we have to do is read our children the Antiracist Baby Book and then they will be perfect activists.

The fact is, the progessive take on teaching values to kids is usually a projection of their own anxiety to make a show of their own moral purity. The focus is all on the adult using the proper moral words, not on how kids actually learn.

I’m the “ditzy leftist” above suggesting white boys de center themselves in this argument. I get that people think that’s lefty ditz stuff - but it’s actually a real piece of advice. People in positions of privilege often think that things apply to them when they do not. The messages about girls’ empowerment have nothing to do with OP’s sons. Telling them “this is not about you, here’s what it’s about” should help them to not feel persecuted by a tshirt. Ongoing conversations are incredibly important so that they can put the stuff they see in context - whether they agree with it or not. Not everything you see and have an emotional response to us about you. Not everything should be treated as though it’s about you. It’s not a ditzy leftist thing to say.

What I have largely seen from people saying “ditzy leftists shouldn’t be the only ones teaching kids about this stuff” is that they disagree with my views on this issue and tend to communicate it by being personally insulting, like above.

DP. You're taking things away but not replacing them with anything. I guess you assume that boys will get positive messages and boy-positive information from "it's endemic" but it isn't so. The messages that children receive are only girl-positive, not boy-positive at all, and boys are getting the message.

OP is asking about what message she should send to her boys and your response is Not that. IOW, you are saying that boys should receive No message.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my boys that they can do anything girls can do. I tell them that they are biologically stronger than girls. I tell them that men do all the most dangerous jobs and that the jobs that keep society functioning are mostly male dominated.

Do you tell them that society should be male dominated? Do you tell them that their strength makes them better than girls or less strong boys?

Wow sounds like I hit a nerve!

Sure! Sounds like you’re deliberately raising boys to believe their strength makes them superior to other people. That’s toxic and makes you part of the problem.

DP. If you WANT boys to have a nuanced understanding of what it means that men are on the average stronger than women, it’s sure as sh*t not gonna happen by lecturing them about decentering themselves, expecting them to be superhumanly resistant to negative messaging, and expecting them to accept being judged/excluded based on their gender/color.

Teaching kids about this stuff cannot be left to ditzy leftists whose understanding of human and child psychology goes no deeper than a bumpersticker slogan. Who believe that all we have to do is read our children the Antiracist Baby Book and then they will be perfect activists.

The fact is, the progessive take on teaching values to kids is usually a projection of their own anxiety to make a show of their own moral purity. The focus is all on the adult using the proper moral words, not on how kids actually learn.

I’m the “ditzy leftist” above suggesting white boys de center themselves in this argument. I get that people think that’s lefty ditz stuff - but it’s actually a real piece of advice. People in positions of privilege often think that things apply to them when they do not. The messages about girls’ empowerment have nothing to do with OP’s sons. Telling them “this is not about you, here’s what it’s about” should help them to not feel persecuted by a tshirt. Ongoing conversations are incredibly important so that they can put the stuff they see in context - whether they agree with it or not. Not everything you see and have an emotional response to us about you. Not everything should be treated as though it’s about you. It’s not a ditzy leftist thing to say.

What I have largely seen from people saying “ditzy leftists shouldn’t be the only ones teaching kids about this stuff” is that they disagree with my views on this issue and tend to communicate it by being personally insulting, like above.

Oh don’t be personally insulted! Just decenter yourself. That wasn’t about you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact is that women have been favored in this country since the 80s isn’t he workforce, media, commercials, schools, etc. the pendulum swung too far and that’s why we’re seeing the rise of “red pill” culture. Society needs to pull back and realize that favoring one group over another is never the answer because there will always be an equal and opposite reaction.

Is this one of those “alternative facts” Kellyanne Conway spoke of?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my boys that they can do anything girls can do. I tell them that they are biologically stronger than girls. I tell them that men do all the most dangerous jobs and that the jobs that keep society functioning are mostly male dominated.

What about the fact that most caregiving jobs (eldercare, childcare, and even healthcare like nursing) are female-dominated? Imagine society if all women went on strike and decided to not take care of any other human? This is one of the most overlooked and undervalued job functions and attitudes like yours are not helping women.

Telling her boy children that they have worth and are valuable is good for society. Men and women, in "traditional" and other roles, have worth and are valuable to society.

This either/or thinking is harmful to girls and boys and society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact is that women have been favored in this country since the 80s isn’t he workforce, media, commercials, schools, etc. the pendulum swung too far and that’s why we’re seeing the rise of “red pill” culture. Society needs to pull back and realize that favoring one group over another is never the answer because there will always be an equal and opposite reaction.

Is this one of those “alternative facts”
Kellyanne Conway spoke of?

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re too young to have seen it firsthand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2 sons (7 and 10) have been asking me about this a lot. At school and camp a lot of girls have shirts that say various versions of like 'girls are better than boys' (i'm not sure exact wording bc the kids are telling me this second hand, but am vaguely aware through culture ofc). My kids ask 'why would they say this?' Thus far my tactic has been to explain that as yet we have had NO female president in US (I am from the UK so can talk about how we have had female leaders at home) and talk about what kind of message that sends to girls. But my kids are not dumb and their answer is - yes 100% we need a female president but that messaging is still like - girls are BETTER than boys. Any tips on how to talk about this to them? I am failing.

It sounds like your boys are internalizing female empowerment messages. No shirts say things like “girls are better.” They do have positive messages or are sardonic rejections of old stereotypes (a popular shirt in the softball world is something like “you wish you could throw like a girl.”

So maybe tell your sons to stop internalizing things so much — it isn’t about them. Girls have historically been denied opportunities and suffered from lower expectations for roles in society. And so we rightfully encourage them to achieve. Boys don’t really need that same encouragement because they have not been bombarded with messaging throughout history like a boy’s place is in the kitchen, a boy shouldn’t get a formal education, etc etc.

Yes of course they do. Boys live today, not 50 years ago.

I should rephrase that. Boys don’t need that encouragement framed in gender-specific terms. Except maybe in terms of redefining roles they play in domestic situations. Professionally and academic, the drive for boys to achieve is already endemic. There’s no need for equivalent messaging/sloganing the way it exists for girls.

It is not. You've got this wrong. If you are a curious person, you can easily find this information and it shows that boys do not succeed and achieve the way that girls do. It starts young and gets worse.

Bullshit.

Boys are not succeeding academically. Look it up. Then eat your post.

No, sealion. You made the claim. Prove it yourself. Best you’ll find, I predict, is some tropes about “what about the boys?”

Lol @ sealion. There was already a link posted in the thread. Thanks for playing.

That was a single link about education.

Now so now do other metrics for “succeed and achieve.” I’ll wait.

How about the fact that men have higher rates of substance abuse, mental illness, and suicide?

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2019/06/03/men-more-likely-than-women-to-face-substance-use-disorders-and-mental-illness

https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/suicide-data-statistics.html

That is your measure for success and achievement? Men have always been more self-destructive. That has nothing to do with policy or messaging.

How about female representation in key industries: https://economicgraph.linkedin.com/blog/women-are-still-underrepresented-in-leadership-and-the-technology-information-and-media-industry

How about the leadership gap: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/womens-leadership-gap-2/

How about barriers to advancement in the workplace: https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/women-in-the-workplace

How about the gender trade gap: https://www.ey.com/en_gl/global-trade/why-the-gender-gap-in-international-trade-needs-to-close-faster

Look I’m not an idiot. I realize that *at the highest levels of privilege* there are gender disparities against women. I have experienced that in my own life. But for men/boys on average, it’s absolutely wrong to claim that they are universally more privileged than women. The suicide statistics alone are sobering (4x as high).

[Anonymous]

I just tell mine the shirts are wrong and stupid and we move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact is that women have been favored in this country since the 80s isn’t he workforce, media, commercials, schools, etc. the pendulum swung too far and that’s why we’re seeing the rise of “red pill” culture. Society needs to pull back and realize that favoring one group over another is never the answer because there will always be an equal and opposite reaction.

Is this one of those “alternative facts” Kellyanne Conway spoke of?

No, it's a true fact. Get out into the world. Learn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact is that women have been favored in this country since the 80s isn’t he workforce, media, commercials, schools, etc. the pendulum swung too far and that’s why we’re seeing the rise of “red pill” culture. Society needs to pull back and realize that favoring one group over another is never the answer because there will always be an equal and opposite reaction.

This is correct. There was a huge boom in the 80s of career women, promoting women in the workforce “quotas”, shirts like the OP references (I had one), more women admitted to college, the rise of commercials and sitcoms featuring the dumb, know nothing, can’t do anything right dads. It really was a huge cultural shift and has been nearly 40 years in the making. We are generations removed from women not being able to compete in sports. In fact, we’ve now come so far that biological men can compete in women’s sports. But that’s for another thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my boys that they can do anything girls can do. I tell them that they are biologically stronger than girls. I tell them that men do all the most dangerous jobs and that the jobs that keep society functioning are mostly male dominated.

Do you tell them that society should be male dominated? Do you tell them that their strength makes them better than girls or less strong boys?

Wow sounds like I hit a nerve!

Sure! Sounds like you’re deliberately raising boys to believe their strength makes them superior to other people. That’s toxic and makes you part of the problem.

DP. If you WANT boys to have a nuanced understanding of what it means that men are on the average stronger than women, it’s sure as sh*t not gonna happen by lecturing them about decentering themselves, expecting them to be superhumanly resistant to negative messaging, and expecting them to accept being judged/excluded based on their gender/color.

Teaching kids about this stuff cannot be left to ditzy leftists whose understanding of human and child psychology goes no deeper than a bumpersticker slogan. Who believe that all we have to do is read our children the Antiracist Baby Book and then they will be perfect activists.

The fact is, the progessive take on teaching values to kids is usually a projection of their own anxiety to make a show of their own moral purity. The focus is all on the adult using the proper moral words, not on how kids actually learn.

I’m the “ditzy leftist” above suggesting white boys de center themselves in this argument. I get that people think that’s lefty ditz stuff - but it’s actually a real piece of advice. People in positions of privilege often think that things apply to them when they do not. The messages about girls’ empowerment have nothing to do with OP’s sons. Telling them “this is not about you, here’s what it’s about” should help them to not feel persecuted by a tshirt. Ongoing conversations are incredibly important so that they can put the stuff they see in context - whether they agree with it or not. Not everything you see and have an emotional response to us about you. Not everything should be treated as though it’s about you. It’s not a ditzy leftist thing to say.

What I have largely seen from people saying “ditzy leftists shouldn’t be the only ones teaching kids about this stuff” is that they disagree with my views on this issue and tend to communicate it by being personally insulting, like above.

Oh don’t be personally insulted! Just decenter yourself. That wasn’t about you.

I didn’t say I was insulted. I said your kind uses personal insults when they disagree with people’s views.

I have also never heard the word “ditzy” applied to a male, so that seems like a personal insult specifically intended to devalue an opinion you disagree with, in a sexist way. There are plenty of words to imply that someone is stupid. That one just means “stupid WOMAN.” Patriarchy showing through loud and clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know , OP, but my son complained that his elementary school has a “girls on the run” club but no running club for boys that he could join. And he wants to join!

He also asked me why the gym has a big “girls rule” sign in it and no boys rule sign. The sign is actually from the the girls
On the run club so it goes hand in hand with his other complaint I guess. I also had a hard time with these questions and actually encouraged him to ask to join the girls on the run club because he was absolutely correct. But, he was nervous to so he didn’t. For reference he is a rising 2nd grader.

As a woman, you should be able to have these conversations with your sons openly. Historically girls were not encouraged to participate in sports, and in fact, they weren’t allowed to. Title IV! These clubs are around to encourage girls to do things that historically they were not allowed to do. Easy answer.

That’s what I tried to do and his response was “so now boys aren’t allowed to, because when grandma was little, girls weren’t allowed to?” I mean he is 7. A sports club that exists only for one gender - without a club for the other gender- at a public school wasn’t ok then and it’s not ok now.

Boys are allowed to join girls on the run.

Boys are not allowed to create a Boys on the run club. Girls on the run is more of a mentorship fellowship club for girls than a running club. Can you imagine trying to create a fellowship club for elementary school boys only?

You mean like Cub Scouts was for decades?
And boys baseball, soccer, pee wee football, etc.?

I'm actually a big fan of separate sex activities (and schools). But all-girl clubs are volunteer-run activities started by moms who saw that girls were not getting opportunities. If your son is not getting opportunities, the answer is to volunteer to start something that includes him.