william & mary admissions is problematic and classist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

Source for your assertion that it "lacks recruitment"? Being outside a major metro area does NOT keep interested employers away. You think recruiters don't go to UVA either? And business majors from W&M in particular do very well in the job market.

No, being a small school outside of major metros is what keeps recruiters away, because they don't bother. Of course the regional companies will still come, but the major ones often don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

I have to disagree with the "lacks recruitment" statement My DS just graduated from W&M last year. He landed a very high paying job with ZERO support from his family - other than listening to him talk about the process and bouncing ideas off of him when he received four very generous offers. My DS did all his job search with the career center on campus. He had his job offers before Thanksgiving of his senior year. And this was during Covid when almost every single one of his contacts with a company was done virtually. W&M was just recently ranked the #5 public school in the country for salaries in finance.

That's impressive, but the point is comparing it's recruitment with other similarly ranked public schools. Lacking recruitment doesn't mean that there is no recruitment at all.

And I agree that business recruitment is great at W&M, and that in fact business majors get their own career fair. The career fair outside of that is not very good though, outside of major companies from NoVA, Richmond and Virginia Beach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

Source for your assertion that it "lacks recruitment"? Being outside a major metro area does NOT keep interested employers away. You think recruiters don't go to UVA either? And business majors from W&M in particular do very well in the job market.

No, being a small school outside of major metros is what keeps recruiters away, because they don't bother. Of course the regional companies will still come, but the major ones often don't.

The data does not support your claim. They have some of the best placement outcomes--students graduating with jobs lined up then most (and def the other VA universities). They get kids internships in DC as well that they can do during their time at WM and have a DC semester program. I just attended a tour. They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student. They offer the same number of offers RD and ED and they want kids to be sure they want to come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UVA has ED but it doesn't help that much to ED. WM, on the other hand, is way easier to get in if you ED. And people have figured it out. Lots of pretty low stat kids (especially boys) at dc's school ED to WM and get in.

Define what you consider to be “low stats” —8 APs, 1460 and wgpa of 4.4?
I also think any adult making a judgement about another person’s child at the school their own kid goes to is very immature and nasty. You can’t know the details of what these kids had on their application or what they wrote in essays or how much they showed they were a good fit with the institution. Let’s just stop being judgmental and acting like we know personal info when we don’t.

The evidence also doesn't support this point--they present data of average stats, separated by gender for ED and RD and there's little difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

Source for your assertion that it "lacks recruitment"? Being outside a major metro area does NOT keep interested employers away. You think recruiters don't go to UVA either? And business majors from W&M in particular do very well in the job market.

No, being a small school outside of major metros is what keeps recruiters away, because they don't bother. Of course the regional companies will still come, but the major ones often don't.

The data does not support your claim. They have some of the best placement outcomes--students graduating with jobs lined up then most (and def the other VA universities). They get kids internships in DC as well that they can do during their time at WM and have a DC semester program. I just attended a tour. They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student. They offer the same number of offers RD and ED and they want kids to be sure they want to come.

Again, job placement does not mean that they got the job through the school, it is often through parental contacts especially for the first few internships.

They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student.

That's just not true, by virtue of college admissions being a zero-sum game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

Source for your assertion that it "lacks recruitment"? Being outside a major metro area does NOT keep interested employers away. You think recruiters don't go to UVA either? And business majors from W&M in particular do very well in the job market.

No, being a small school outside of major metros is what keeps recruiters away, because they don't bother. Of course the regional companies will still come, but the major ones often don't.

The data does not support your claim. They have some of the best placement outcomes--students graduating with jobs lined up then most (and def the other VA universities). They get kids internships in DC as well that they can do during their time at WM and have a DC semester program. I just attended a tour. They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student. They offer the same number of offers RD and ED and they want kids to be sure they want to come.

Again, job placement does not mean that they got the job through the school, it is often through parental contacts especially for the first few internships.

They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student.

That's just not true, by virtue of college admissions being a zero-sum game.

You're so blindly pessimistic despite plenty of evidence contrary to your beliefs. If you don't want to send your child to W&M, don't, but that it's ridiculous to claim that anyone who isn't upper class should not go there. For lower and lower-middle class students it is by far the cheapest public college in the Commonwealth. Pell Grant students get a full ride. UVA is not worth another 40-50k of loans just for slightly better career placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

Source for your assertion that it "lacks recruitment"? Being outside a major metro area does NOT keep interested employers away. You think recruiters don't go to UVA either? And business majors from W&M in particular do very well in the job market.

No, being a small school outside of major metros is what keeps recruiters away, because they don't bother. Of course the regional companies will still come, but the major ones often don't.

The data does not support your claim. They have some of the best placement outcomes--students graduating with jobs lined up then most (and def the other VA universities). They get kids internships in DC as well that they can do during their time at WM and have a DC semester program. I just attended a tour. They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student. They offer the same number of offers RD and ED and they want kids to be sure they want to come.

Again, job placement does not mean that they got the job through the school, it is often through parental contacts especially for the first few internships.

They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student.

That's just not true, by virtue of college admissions being a zero-sum game.

You're so blindly pessimistic despite plenty of evidence contrary to your beliefs. If you don't want to send your child to W&M, don't, but that it's ridiculous to claim that anyone who isn't upper class should not go there. For lower and lower-middle class students it is by far the cheapest public college in the Commonwealth. Pell Grant students get a full ride. UVA is not worth another 40-50k of loans just for slightly better career placement.

Clearly OP's kid didn't get in so they have to bash here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand these threads. If they can tell you what W&M will cost at time of application (via calculator, via promise that merit aid will be awarded in the same way), then applying ED is an option. If given that you still want to take your chances at getting into a better school, or getting an amazing aid package somewhere else, nothing stopping you. There's the conservative route, take a sure thing but never know what could have been. There's the riskier route, see what happens during RD, knowing the competition is greater. This is the same decision everyone makes, regardless of income level.

of course you understand these threads -always startled by someone whose kid didn’t get in so they want to bash

Ding! We have a winner. Happens every year. Every single year. OP, multiple PPs have explained why your gripes about ED for W&M is not true. I imagine their might be other colleges or universities that use ED and NPC differently and perhaps for those ED creates a challenge, but it's not the case here.
Your sweeping judgments about the "Virginia university system" are groundless. You--like all the folks that show up annually--believed your kid was entitled to attend W&M or UVA. They are not. It's not some great conspiracy, it's not societal wrong. People apply to college, and sometimes you get in, and sometimes you don't. The state provides MANY amazing high quality options for undergraduate, and your student is blessed with many in states schools that aren't W&M or UVA. We are actually blessed with a fantastic system of in-state college and universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Both UVA and W&M want to go private LOL

Yes, and both UVa Law and Grad Business (Darden) already are private - with no state funding.

Even in arts & sciences, state funding at UVa or W&M is MUCH smaller ($-per-student) than in many other states - and vastly smaller than the in-state tuition discount. Both would love to privatize more - ideally go completely private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M has the highest median parental income out of all public universities for a reason.

Honestly, low and middle-income students shouldn't be attending W&M to begin with. LACs all tend to be specialized in graduate/professional school, which many low and middle income cannot go to without having parental support throughout ones 20's. The school doesn't have any engineering or tech-related majors (except CS), which are the ones that pay well with only a bachelors. It's too small and far away from major metros for many companies to recruit from, so many students get internships/jobs with parental networks. Plus it's easily the most expensive public at $40k/year for in-state.

W&M meets 100% of demonstrated financial need in state. Even more than UVA typically. My middle class friend's son only pays about 18k/yr total. Cheaper than any other major public he got accepted at.

Doesn't change the fact that it's geared towards professional/graduate schools, lacks recruitment due to it's small size, lacks the engineering/IT degrees that tend to be greatest movers from low/middle-income to high income with a bachelors, etc.

Covering demonstrate need is great for low income, but not for middle income. Most middle-income families get donut holed.

Source for your assertion that it "lacks recruitment"? Being outside a major metro area does NOT keep interested employers away. You think recruiters don't go to UVA either? And business majors from W&M in particular do very well in the job market.

No, being a small school outside of major metros is what keeps recruiters away, because they don't bother. Of course the regional companies will still come, but the major ones often don't.

The data does not support your claim. They have some of the best placement outcomes--students graduating with jobs lined up then most (and def the other VA universities). They get kids internships in DC as well that they can do during their time at WM and have a DC semester program. I just attended a tour. They also said not applying ED is in no means held against a student. They offer the same number of offers RD and ED and they want kids to be sure they want to come.

Princeton Review rates William & Mary #13 for Best Career Placement (Public Schools) and #1 for Internships (Public Schools).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand these threads. If they can tell you what W&M will cost at time of application (via calculator, via promise that merit aid will be awarded in the same way), then applying ED is an option. If given that you still want to take your chances at getting into a better school, or getting an amazing aid package somewhere else, nothing stopping you. There's the conservative route, take a sure thing but never know what could have been. There's the riskier route, see what happens during RD, knowing the competition is greater. This is the same decision everyone makes, regardless of income level.

of course you understand these threads -always startled by someone whose kid didn’t get in so they want to bash

Ding! We have a winner. Happens every year. Every single year. OP, multiple PPs have explained why your gripes about ED for W&M is not true. I imagine their might be other colleges or universities that use ED and NPC differently and perhaps for those ED creates a challenge, but it's not the case here.
Your sweeping judgments about the "Virginia university system" are groundless. You--like all the folks that show up annually--believed your kid was entitled to attend W&M or UVA. They are not. It's not some great conspiracy, it's not societal wrong. People apply to college, and sometimes you get in, and sometimes you don't. The state provides MANY amazing high quality options for undergraduate, and your student is blessed with many in states schools that aren't W&M or UVA. We are actually blessed with a fantastic system of in-state college and universities.

Agree 100%. And what no one has said and OP doesn't grasp is that W&M is public with a small Admissions Office . It operates on a shoestring and cannot compete with the AOs at similar private SLACs charing $80K a year. Even its admissions readers (hired by the hour to make the first slash through the applications) are paid only $18-$22 a year. So W&M has decided that its small public AO will offer EDI and EDII and RD. That's perfectly fine and actually works for low-income applicaants because they can be"one and done" with EDI or EDII and not have to file multiple applications at $100 a pop. Our SN DC was one and done at another Virginia School. What a relief!.

Also, if you are so desperate to get into W&M and for some reason don't want to go EDI or EDII,, then apply to UVA and pray to get in and then transfer to W&M (its going to be the same intro classes - I know someone who did this) or, better yet, if finances are a problem to to a NVCC (community college), work hard and transfer to W&M. Done!

So stop complaining about whatever your think the lack of EA signifies and apply to a similar $80 SLAC, UVA EA, or another great VA school, or go to community college and tranfer to W&M. The beautiful thing about VA is that w hae 33 institutions of higher learning to suit all sudents and all budgets.

[Anonymous]

Although this is not EA, W&M Cypher card is kind of similar to that. My daughter received the card at the beginning of Feb. This is earlier than, for example, VT EA results. That was such a pleasant surprise for my DD (we had no idea about this practice when she was applying).

[Anonymous]

Posted in a similar thread: OP has posted numerous threads to discount UVA and W&M public and their admissions policies. I mention only one below. If I need to I will ask Jeff to intervene. I'm sorry OP's kid didn't get into W&M and UVA but the fact remains that these are SMALL AO PUBLIC OFFICES and cannot respond as well-funded private AO offices might. W&M has decided that EDI and EDII and RD suit what it was trying to accomplish. UVA had decided ED EA and RD works for it. If that doesn't work for OP their kid )whom presumably did't get i ) can apply UVA EA and transfer to W&M . Or they can do the financially strong thing and have their kid go to community college and transfer to W&M. But stop the bashing on publish schools. We have 33 options in Virginia. Pick one that suits your kid and shut up.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/45/1126910.page#24812668

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Posted in a similar thread: OP has posted numerous threads to discount UVA and W&M public and their admissions policies. I mention only one below. If I need to I will ask Jeff to intervene. I'm sorry OP's kid didn't get into W&M and UVA but the fact remains that these are SMALL AO PUBLIC OFFICES and cannot respond as well-funded private AO offices might. W&M has decided that EDI and EDII and RD suit what it was trying to accomplish. UVA had decided ED EA and RD works for it. If that doesn't work for OP their kid )whom presumably did't get i ) can apply UVA EA and transfer to W&M . Or they can do the financially strong thing and have their kid go to community college and transfer to W&M. But stop the bashing on publish schools. We have 33 options in Virginia. Pick one that suits your kid and shut up.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/45/1126910.page#24812668

Yeah it's insane. W&M's selectivity is what allows it to remain what it is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Posted in a similar thread: OP has posted numerous threads to discount UVA and W&M public and their admissions policies. I mention only one below. If I need to I will ask Jeff to intervene. I'm sorry OP's kid didn't get into W&M and UVA but the fact remains that these are SMALL AO PUBLIC OFFICES and cannot respond as well-funded private AO offices might. W&M has decided that EDI and EDII and RD suit what it was trying to accomplish. UVA had decided ED EA and RD works for it. If that doesn't work for OP their kid )whom presumably did't get i ) can apply UVA EA and transfer to W&M . Or they can do the financially strong thing and have their kid go to community college and transfer to W&M. But stop the bashing on publish schools. We have 33 options in Virginia. Pick one that suits your kid and shut up.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/45/1126910.page#24812668

Yeah it's insane. W&M's selectivity is what allows it to remain what it is

I agree. And I had at the time the benefit of the massive California State system (tri level) to choose from. But somehow I felt better at a slac (I had no private or parental counseling) so picked a SLAC re although I had no idea what I was doing At least then it was only 6 a year and I had scholarships yo drop it to almost a negligible level. But that was a long ago where merit meant something so I acculumatescholaships on that strength..