william & mary admissions is problematic and classist

[Anonymous]

At the same time, I think some of these countries also recognize that not everyone needs to attend university (definitely has its issues that disadvantage immigrant kids or kids who parents didn't attend university). You can make perfectly good money coming out of a trade or vocational school and since the college student lifestyle doesn't exist in the same way as in the US, students attending their vocational schools and living in flats around their urban campus can get a similar experience and social life. I say this as the one of two siblings in my German family to attend university and all of my 5 siblings are do fine, regardless whether they attended university or not. My German nieces and nephews are also doing fine, some attending university and some completely a vocational degree. There is also some flexibility in selecting your vocational degree, as my nephew has changed his mind 3 times on the state's dime and is still covered as he pursues an internship in IT. It's not perfect, no system really is, but it's interesting to compare it to the American system.

Does anyone have any opinions about the UCAS system that exists in the UK where students only apply to their realistic top 5 choices and have to decide between Oxford and Cambridge if they want to apply to them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All colleges in the USA, unlike the rest of the world, are basically #1 a business, money-making venture, whatever you call them otherwise, however they get their funding.

Very much so. As a foreigner who went to university for free in my country, it's obvious to me.
However now we're here and are forced to play by new rules. My kid got a cipher postcard from W&M. Hope he gets in.

What country?
Those countries usually take half of your income as tax.
There's no such thing as free.

The problem with US systems is more with fairness, not a cost comparison to European countries who pay 50% tax.

DP

Germany
the Netherlands

these countries all provide FREE university education,* often in English and you as a parent don't have to pay a cent of tax. There's a "tuition" levy of about $40 per semester or equivalent

For the small subset of students who the believe deserve a university education. Those not deemed worthy have been placed on a lower track for years by that point.

Exactly. It's great for those whose university attendance is subsidized by all those who cannot attend.

If we had German trade unions, I'm guessing that more students would be happy to go work in a warehouse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ED is in line with SLAC admissions, which rarely have an EA round. Smaller schools need to more tightly control class size and composition, which they cannot do in EA. They would go into RD not knowing if there is a a glut of girls or OOS or STEM planning to accept for EA. Most state schools are large enough that it evens out.

OP— how would you feel if WM went into RD without a handle on which EA kids will accept, and they ended up 70% female, or 60% OOS or significantly overenrolled?

Small schools use ED because they need to be precise in fillings and balancing a class. Read Seligo”# book. Using ED enables a small school to round out a class.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All colleges in the USA, unlike the rest of the world, are basically #1 a business, money-making venture, whatever you call them otherwise, however they get their funding.

Very much so. As a foreigner who went to university for free in my country, it's obvious to me.
However now we're here and are forced to play by new rules. My kid got a cipher postcard from W&M. Hope he gets in.

What country?
Those countries usually take half of your income as tax.
There's no such thing as free.

The problem with US systems is more with fairness, not a cost comparison to European countries who pay 50% tax.

DP

Germany
the Netherlands

these countries all provide FREE university education,* often in English and you as a parent don't have to pay a cent of tax. There's a "tuition" levy of about $40 per semester or equivalent

For the small subset of students who the believe deserve a university education. Those not deemed worthy have been placed on a lower track for years by that point.

Exactly. It's great for those whose university attendance is subsidized by all those who cannot attend.

Those countries have solid vocational trainings often on par to AA degrees. Also there are always other pathways vs the direct one, that prep the student to the needed level. There is no GenEd and BA/BS are thus usually only 3 yrs vs 4 yrs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ED is in line with SLAC admissions, which rarely have an EA round. Smaller schools need to more tightly control class size and composition, which they cannot do in EA. They would go into RD not knowing if there is a a glut of girls or OOS or STEM planning to accept for EA. Most state schools are large enough that it evens out.

OP— how would you feel if WM went into RD without a handle on which EA kids will accept, and they ended up 70% female, or 60% OOS or significantly overenrolled?

Small schools use ED because they need to be precise in fillings and balancing a class. Read Seligo”# book. Using ED enables a small school to round out a class.

WM is not a SLAC it is a mid-sized university. And, by that argument, why does Virignia Tech or UVA have ED? They don't need it to balance a small class.

[Anonymous]

W&M has very good net costs for in-state lower to middle income families, which can be seen on the Net Price Calculator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - I disagree with you.

+1
We love ED (though didn’t apply to W&M). It allows students to tell the school they are their first choice, rather than just a fallback in case your other choices reject you. Worked well for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing for these Euro system for example Germany, they decide if you are going to college or vocational school as early as in the elementary school.

about 50% to college and about 50% to vocational college.

So 50% don't get the 'free' college education.

Well yea the other 50% get 'free' vocational education and it's actually good, but that's another story.

One thing is that their system is at least very fair, no 'holistic' bullshit.

Different system and structure. The Fairness part (for both cost and admission) is the biggest problem with the US system.

* 50% to vocational school

Not too different from here where kids get put on advanced pathways already in ES or in MS 6th grade, especially math. Nevermind magnet schools with entrance exams. Their upper pathways have entrance exams too and if declined parents can still push for their kids to attend, no matter what.
The main difference to me is that you can pick an Honors/AP in a class you are strong at still in HS, while they expect the university bound kids to be advanced more broadly across all classes like in IB.

Also if 50% of their kids would go to the university, they'd have to lower their entrance standards. The vocational system there is dual, meaning you learn on the job and the theory behind it. Well rounded and solid skills transferrable across any company. Hitting the ground running when employed.

[Anonymous]

Does W&M give out merit scholarships?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - I disagree with you.

+1
We love ED (though didn’t apply to W&M). It allows students to tell the school they are their first choice, rather than just a fallback in case your other choices reject you. Worked well for us.

+1 as well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does W&M give out merit scholarships?

their CDS would tell you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - I disagree with you.

+1
We love ED (though didn’t apply to W&M). It allows students to tell the school they are their first choice, rather than just a fallback in case your other choices reject you. Worked well for us.

+1 as well

It's a way to tell the school that you can easily afford it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does W&M give out merit scholarships?

their CDS would tell you.

Yes, but not many.

[Anonymous]

OP, I hear you, but don’t sympathize with your argument. First, W&M has a net price calculator. Using it, it’s pretty easy to estimate your potential aid. Others schools have the same. Run a few calculators and compare school results before your kid applies. Second, as a state school, W&M is already discounted for VA residents, so “financial aid” is built-in to the sticker price. Third, W&M and UVA have ED because they need NOVA students to prioritize them, but just use them as safeties. Both schools are excellent, and given that they MUST (state law) accept two-third of their students from VA, it’s important that they can attract many of the state’s best students. If you don’t like that, the state should release these schools from the 2/3 mandate, and they can get their great students from OOS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I hear you, but don’t sympathize with your argument. First, W&M has a net price calculator. Using it, it’s pretty easy to estimate your potential aid. Others schools have the same. Run a few calculators and compare school results before your kid applies. Second, as a state school, W&M is already discounted for VA residents, so “financial aid” is built-in to the sticker price. Third, W&M and UVA have ED because they need NOVA students to prioritize them, but just use them as safeties. Both schools are excellent, and given that they MUST (state law) accept two-third of their students from VA, it’s important that they can attract many of the state’s best students. If you don’t like that, the state should release these schools from the 2/3 mandate, and they can get their great students from OOS.

But no other state U system is so dependent on ED. Why is it such a factor in VA and other big systems can run their college admissions without it?