DS Wants to Transfer, DH Pushing Back

[Anonymous]

I apologize that what I wrote above didn't come out as it looked when I typed it. I know it makes it hard to read.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t know why your DH pushed so hard for Emory over Tufts. They are basically equivalent schools. Now, Normal freshman adjustment is being seen through the lens of him going to his second choice school.

Are they equivalent?

Emory is ranked higher but the student body from a brainpower perspective is completely interchangeable. A lot of Northeast MidAtlantic students, a strong jewish population, very smart kids who didn’t get into an Ivy or a better ranked school.

You can say this about Northeastern or Tulane. All of these schools have high stats that's not what separates them.

Exactly. All of this argument about tiny differences is ridiculous. The median SAT scores for Tufts, Emory, Northeastern, Cornell, Harvard and Vanderbilt are all in the 99th percentile. For Boston College and Tulane, it's the 98th percentile. There's essentially no difference in the ability levels of students at these colleges.

+100

There is no difference between the students in schools ranked 25 - 45 or so. Why are you all so hung up on USNWR rankings? The academically quality and prestige of these schools are interchangeable.

For one Emory is ranked 20 or 21 depending on the ranking so your own criteria wouldn't apply. And two there's a big difference between USC and Brandies. Emory is a top 20ish school while Tufts have never been ranked that highly. However I do agree that the difference isn't large enough for DS to stay if there truly unhappy.

a) Where did USC and Brandeis enter the conversation?

b) The median SAT score for USC is 99th percentile. For Brandeis it's approximately the 97th percentile. How is that a big difference? I mean. I agree there's a big difference between the two, but it's got nothing to do with the quality of the students or the academics.

c) Rankings are only relevant to applicants who believe that the criteria used are the most representative of their needs. USNWR has pretended for decades that their criteria reflect everyone's needs, but they don't. Use different criteria and you'll get very different results.

USC is ranked 27 and Brandies 42, so I was saying there is a big difference between schools ranked 25-45. Emory is ranked higher on multiple rankings however.... Either way if OPs son is on the verge of depression then he should leave. I'm sure Emory doesn't want that.

I'm glad we agree about the mental health aspect of this.

I do think it's important to continue to address the misunderstanding about rankings, though, because so many people here seem to place so much weight on them, and that is a huge part of what is leading to a generation of stressed out, depressed kids. Consider this: USNWR has Emory at #21 and Tufts at #30 in my 2021 Best Colleges guide. Here's how they differ on some of the more important individual criteria they use to come up with those rankings, with Northeastern at #49 added for emphasis.....


Criterion Emory Tufts Northeastern

Opinions of college officials 4.1 3.8 3.5
first-year retention % 94 96 97
6-year grad. rate 90 94 89
% classes under 20 62 68 68
% classes over 50 13 8 6
student/faculty ratio 9/1 9/1 14/1
25th-75th SAT percentile 1360-1530 1390-1540 1390-1540
Frosh in top 10% of class 84 80 75

How does that all add up to any of these colleges being stronger than the other? The distance between colleges near the top of the list and those further down appears large because there are so many of them that are excellent, leading to very comparable schools necessarily being separated by numbers that some take to imply a difference in quality. The reason Emory is perennially higher on the USNWR list is because they use criteria and weights that are favorable to Emory. And those criteria do not include the quality of classroom instruction, because it's not measurable. USNWR only tries to infer it from other factors.

We need to stop using this as an absolute measure of quality. It's not.

Emory's reputation score is much higher. Which is what prestige is.

[Anonymous]

God, I hate this forum. Prestige and rankings above all else, calling kids spoiled for being unhappy, thinking money means you control your kid. There’s more bad advice than good here and I think half the people on here don’t have kids in college.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t know why your DH pushed so hard for Emory over Tufts. They are basically equivalent schools. Now, Normal freshman adjustment is being seen through the lens of him going to his second choice school.

Are they equivalent?

Emory is ranked higher but the student body from a brainpower perspective is completely interchangeable. A lot of Northeast MidAtlantic students, a strong jewish population, very smart kids who didn’t get into an Ivy or a better ranked school.

You can say this about Northeastern or Tulane. All of these schools have high stats that's not what separates them.

Exactly. All of this argument about tiny differences is ridiculous. The median SAT scores for Tufts, Emory, Northeastern, Cornell, Harvard and Vanderbilt are all in the 99th percentile. For Boston College and Tulane, it's the 98th percentile. There's essentially no difference in the ability levels of students at these colleges.

+100

There is no difference between the students in schools ranked 25 - 45 or so. Why are you all so hung up on USNWR rankings? The academically quality and prestige of these schools are interchangeable.

For one Emory is ranked 20 or 21 depending on the ranking so your own criteria wouldn't apply. And two there's a big difference between USC and Brandies. Emory is a top 20ish school while Tufts have never been ranked that highly. However I do agree that the difference isn't large enough for DS to stay if there truly unhappy.

a) Where did USC and Brandeis enter the conversation?

b) The median SAT score for USC is 99th percentile. For Brandeis it's approximately the 97th percentile. How is that a big difference? I mean. I agree there's a big difference between the two, but it's got nothing to do with the quality of the students or the academics.

c) Rankings are only relevant to applicants who believe that the criteria used are the most representative of their needs. USNWR has pretended for decades that their criteria reflect everyone's needs, but they don't. Use different criteria and you'll get very different results.

USC is ranked 27 and Brandies 42, so I was saying there is a big difference between schools ranked 25-45. Emory is ranked higher on multiple rankings however.... Either way if OPs son is on the verge of depression then he should leave. I'm sure Emory doesn't want that.

I'm glad we agree about the mental health aspect of this.

I do think it's important to continue to address the misunderstanding about rankings, though, because so many people here seem to place so much weight on them, and that is a huge part of what is leading to a generation of stressed out, depressed kids. Consider this: USNWR has Emory at #21 and Tufts at #30 in my 2021 Best Colleges guide. Here's how they differ on some of the more important individual criteria they use to come up with those rankings, with Northeastern at #49 added for emphasis.....


Criterion Emory Tufts Northeastern

Opinions of college officials 4.1 3.8 3.5
first-year retention % 94 96 97
6-year grad. rate 90 94 89
% classes under 20 62 68 68
% classes over 50 13 8 6
student/faculty ratio 9/1 9/1 14/1
25th-75th SAT percentile 1360-1530 1390-1540 1390-1540
Frosh in top 10% of class 84 80 75

How does that all add up to any of these colleges being stronger than the other? The distance between colleges near the top of the list and those further down appears large because there are so many of them that are excellent, leading to very comparable schools necessarily being separated by numbers that some take to imply a difference in quality. The reason Emory is perennially higher on the USNWR list is because they use criteria and weights that are favorable to Emory. And those criteria do not include the quality of classroom instruction, because it's not measurable. USNWR only tries to infer it from other factors.

We need to stop using this as an absolute measure of quality. It's not.

Emory's reputation score is much higher. Which is what prestige is.

A reputation score based on the opinions of people who 1) are unquestionably biased, 2) are almost certainly influenced by the very rankings to which they're contributing, 3) have first-hand knowledge of at most a handful of the schools they're rating, and 4) are limited by the 5-point scale on which they make their ratings, a scale where Duke's score of 4.5 implies that half of the raters gave it a 4, which implies that they believe it's around 80% as capable of educating your child as Princeton and Harvard are. Ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

That's not how you use reputation scores. And they're asking thousands of people, not just a few.

[Anonymous]

Transferring from one good college to another seems like a pretty low stakes way to experience the choice-making and consequences that come with adult life, much like moving or changing jobs will be later. Your kid can experience that now while he has a buffer so that seems ideal.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Depends on who is paying. The parent who is paying g ts to make the decision.

NO. The kid is launching. They should chose where they live, what alum they want to be, what advisors/academic options appeal to them.

It is ugly and self-centered to rule by checkbook.

You should use this opportunity convince them that you have faith in their ability to make good choices, to forge a path to their future.

I feel very bad for this poster's kids. He probably treats his wife the same way.

Actually, I'm a woman. I was also LMC growing up, so my perspective is different. I would have loved to be able to afford to go to a college like Emory or Tufts. I had to go where there was money to send me. K

To me, the ds in this situation sounds a bit spoiled, and maybe his dad realizes that. I could understand transferring to a completely different type of school (large public, small LAC).but to someone like me transferring because of skiing to a school that's much of a muchness sounds odd. [/quote

Show me where it says the student wants to transfer solely because of skiing?

[Anonymous]

+1
Nowhere does it say he wants to transfer solely because of skiing. Don’t minimize and belittle and make it about something it is clearly not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God, I hate this forum. Prestige and rankings above all else, calling kids spoiled for being unhappy, thinking money means you control your kid. There’s more bad advice than good here and I think half the people on here don’t have kids in college.

+ a gazillion

[Anonymous]

DS has done research, he knows when transfer application is due and is not the type to ask our assistance with completing it. He’s always been more organized than me and knows I would make things worse, not better LOL.

It is most definitely NOT just about skiing, just to be clear. He is into the humanities (someone mentioned something about engineering in a PP). If you look at most popular majors at Emory, you will see they are nursing and business. My DH and I absolutely agree with DS that the Tufts community came off as far less pre-professional seeming. The visit left us with the feeling that it had a much more liberal arts college flavor and there were a lot of students who did seem very theatre/arts kids types. DS isn’t a theater kid BUT he loves writing and I think he jives with the creative types. That said, I am sure if he looked harder he would find more kids like him at Emory and it was an unfortunate luck of the draw that his roommate is so business oriented and talks constantly about his sole goal of being rich. I’m sure it is hard to live with and colors his perception and it would be a more fun experience if he shared a room with someone who wasn’t so single-tracked.

In terms of Atlanta, part of it is that he definitely misses skiing. He is not at competition level but he is very good and enjoys it a lot. He is just as happy going alone as he is with friends, it would not be out of the ordinary for him to hop in the car and head out himself. Again, though, I do see my DH side of he could try new activities and maybe he would find something he likes equally well or even more. The main thing he loves about Boston is being in a city that has a European feel, where people walk and bike and take public transportation. He liked the young feel that comes from having so many colleges. I think there are 30+ in the region? A lot. He also likes the fast pace of a northern city. TBH I am totally with him on Atlanta. I would be happy about the mild winters because I hate the cold, but otherwise the city doesn’t hold a candle to a place like Boston in terms of the atmosphere I like, so I get that. Even my DH doesn’t love Atlanta.

I think DS actually wanted to love Emory so he would have that in common with DH. I don’t think he went in ready to hate it. I think he had reservations and uncertainties but he trusted his dad’s input that he would love it there like he did.

I also don’t think DH was pushing him to be selfish. I truly think he loved his experience and just wanted the same for his kid. However, they are different people and I am not totally shocked that they are finding different things speak to them. He also—as mentioned—is hung up on rankings and that was part of it. But it was coming from a place of “I want the best for my son, I want him to have a great experience like I did” and not from a dark place. It might be tunnel vision but he did have DS “best interests” in mind. He feels like as the adult parent, he knows better. Again, I see his point. We differ in that I feel it is ok if DS makes a decision that in the end may or may not be the best decision. I might feel differently if he were talking about quitting school and joining the circus. (Actually knowing me, I might even be okay with that. But my family has some wacky non-conformists and so I am more used to that. My cousin quit school to start a business and he made tons of money; my uncle dropped out to be a poet and he ended up winning a prestigious award and ultimately offered a job writing for a well-known magazine and he does poetry workshops all over the world. They seem to land on their feet. DH would be terrified if DS wanted to quit college but he comes from a family where everyone is highly educated).

Here is where I am at right now. I still see both sides, but when it comes down to it I side with DS making his own decisions and mistakes. They are both great schools but if he thinks he would truly be happier at Tufts he should try otherwise he will always wonder.

I talked to DH and said let’s him try, he may not even get in and then the whole thing is settled. And then he won’t be angry that he was dissuaded from trying. If he does get in we can deal with it then and hopefully DH will get over his disappointment. He wanted DS to go to “the best school he got in” which according to USNWR ranking would be Emory. I don’t buy into the rankings like he does, and I agree with others that the student body is very similar in terms of capability and smarts. Both schools will give an excellent education. If it were between Harvard and Tufts, Harvard would give him an edge in terms of prestige but I honestly don’t think there is that much difference between Emory and Tufts in that regard.

It is a tough situation because I honestly do see both of their sides. But as PP said it is not about whether he would eventually settle into Emory and be fine. I am sure he will would. It’s about a the relationship we are establishing with him as he navigates adulthood.

Ok, I probably over-shared but I personally hate when people ask stuff on DCUM and tons of people contribute and then they never bother to weigh in again, LOL

[Anonymous]

Thank you for that thoughtful update.

I totally agree with your statement:

<<It’s about a the relationship we are establishing with him as he navigates adulthood.>>

Hopefully your husband can come around to this perspective.

Usually people who are very hung up on external trappings of status (USNWR rankings for example) are insecure. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS has done research, he knows when transfer application is due and is not the type to ask our assistance with completing it. He’s always been more organized than me and knows I would make things worse, not better LOL.

It is most definitely NOT just about skiing, just to be clear. He is into the humanities (someone mentioned something about engineering in a PP). If you look at most popular majors at Emory, you will see they are nursing and business. My DH and I absolutely agree with DS that the Tufts community came off as far less pre-professional seeming. The visit left us with the feeling that it had a much more liberal arts college flavor and there were a lot of students who did seem very theatre/arts kids types. DS isn’t a theater kid BUT he loves writing and I think he jives with the creative types. That said, I am sure if he looked harder he would find more kids like him at Emory and it was an unfortunate luck of the draw that his roommate is so business oriented and talks constantly about his sole goal of being rich. I’m sure it is hard to live with and colors his perception and it would be a more fun experience if he shared a room with someone who wasn’t so single-tracked.

In terms of Atlanta, part of it is that he definitely misses skiing. He is not at competition level but he is very good and enjoys it a lot. He is just as happy going alone as he is with friends, it would not be out of the ordinary for him to hop in the car and head out himself. Again, though, I do see my DH side of he could try new activities and maybe he would find something he likes equally well or even more. The main thing he loves about Boston is being in a city that has a European feel, where people walk and bike and take public transportation. He liked the young feel that comes from having so many colleges. I think there are 30+ in the region? A lot. He also likes the fast pace of a northern city. TBH I am totally with him on Atlanta. I would be happy about the mild winters because I hate the cold, but otherwise the city doesn’t hold a candle to a place like Boston in terms of the atmosphere I like, so I get that. Even my DH doesn’t love Atlanta.

I think DS actually wanted to love Emory so he would have that in common with DH. I don’t think he went in ready to hate it. I think he had reservations and uncertainties but he trusted his dad’s input that he would love it there like he did.

I also don’t think DH was pushing him to be selfish. I truly think he loved his experience and just wanted the same for his kid. However, they are different people and I am not totally shocked that they are finding different things speak to them. He also—as mentioned—is hung up on rankings and that was part of it. But it was coming from a place of “I want the best for my son, I want him to have a great experience like I did” and not from a dark place. It might be tunnel vision but he did have DS “best interests” in mind. He feels like as the adult parent, he knows better. Again, I see his point. We differ in that I feel it is ok if DS makes a decision that in the end may or may not be the best decision. I might feel differently if he were talking about quitting school and joining the circus. (Actually knowing me, I might even be okay with that. But my family has some wacky non-conformists and so I am more used to that. My cousin quit school to start a business and he made tons of money; my uncle dropped out to be a poet and he ended up winning a prestigious award and ultimately offered a job writing for a well-known magazine and he does poetry workshops all over the world. They seem to land on their feet. DH would be terrified if DS wanted to quit college but he comes from a family where everyone is highly educated).

Here is where I am at right now. I still see both sides, but when it comes down to it I side with DS making his own decisions and mistakes. They are both great schools but if he thinks he would truly be happier at Tufts he should try otherwise he will always wonder.

I talked to DH and said let’s him try, he may not even get in and then the whole thing is settled. And then he won’t be angry that he was dissuaded from trying. If he does get in we can deal with it then and hopefully DH will get over his disappointment. He wanted DS to go to “the best school he got in” which according to USNWR ranking would be Emory. I don’t buy into the rankings like he does, and I agree with others that the student body is very similar in terms of capability and smarts. Both schools will give an excellent education. If it were between Harvard and Tufts, Harvard would give him an edge in terms of prestige but I honestly don’t think there is that much difference between Emory and Tufts in that regard.

It is a tough situation because I honestly do see both of their sides. But as PP said it is not about whether he would eventually settle into Emory and be fine. I am sure he will would. It’s about a the relationship we are establishing with him as he navigates adulthood.

Ok, I probably over-shared but I personally hate when people ask stuff on DCUM and tons of people contribute and then they never bother to weigh in again, LOL

Thanks for the update and following up. Sometimes people disappear and I wonder what ever happened.

Boston is the place for college. My kid is a freshman at Tufts and loves the school and the whole area. Easy to make friends and find the types of people it sounds like your son wants to be around. Tufts has a good transfer student association, your son may want to contact them if he has any questions. It’s not an easy decision and I know your DH is coming from a good place. But 4 years is a long time and your son sounds mature enough to know his mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God, I hate this forum. Prestige and rankings above all else, calling kids spoiled for being unhappy, thinking money means you control your kid. There’s more bad advice than good here and I think half the people on here don’t have kids in college.

+ a gazillion

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for that thoughtful update.

I totally agree with your statement:

<<It’s about a the relationship we are establishing with him as he navigates adulthood.>>

Hopefully your husband can come around to this perspective.

Usually people who are very hung up on external trappings of status (USNWR rankings for example) are insecure. Just saying.

+1 I also appreciate your taking the time to fill in more details. I've been providing a lot of the stats about the lack of enough academic distinction between them to make a decision based on that, and it's nice to know my effort has been considered in moving forward.

[Anonymous]

This OP again and thanks so much to the Tufts poster about your DC’s positive experience. I will share your tip about the student association!

And l to the PP about stats: YES, I absolutely read yours and other posters’ arguments very carefully, and considered them. Overall I think these rankings are not terribly useful and create unnecessary stress. I understand the perspective that being obsessed with them is linked to insecurity. That makes sense. In my DH case I think they are less linked to insecurity and more tied to the fact that in this case they just served to bolster his argument that Emory would be the best choice for DS. This is just conjecture, but I bet if Tufts had been ranked higher he wouldn’t be as ranking-oriented (meaning he loved Emory so much he would still vote for that).

If DS had decided he wanted to apply to Princeton and got in, however, I bet the ranking thing would kick in again and he’d be fine with him choosing that over Emory! As mentioned, he comes from a family where everyone is highly educated and people talk a LOT about universities: where is everyone going. Where are people teaching. Who has tenure. It’s way more than the typical family, I think. I think it just looms larger in his life than a lot of other people (both of his parents are academics and his sister and BIL, and various other family members). When I first shared the story of the cousin who dropped out and started a wacky business and made a lot of $ (it had to do with old plumbing parts and supplies and it turns out he hit gold with some extremely rare items that serious renovators paid a ton of $ for, and then he knew how to ferret them out because most people had no idea they were worth so much). He ended up selling the business and retiring early. But my in-laws first question was, “but did he go back to school?” LOL. So you see where this heads are.