The Woke Police Mom

[Anonymous]

These issues are so complicated but I just really agree with other pps that this is like, they are pushing it too far and turning people off.

I have always been very very socially liberal, my family thinks I am like your friend because I call them out on using actual pejoratives! I have no problem with trans people, they should do whatever they want to do, I will call them whatever they want me to call them.

But I do resent the move towards degendering language. I feel like a woman and that is important to me. It is so important to a trans woman to identify the way they feel, so there is something real there. I enjoy things that are feminine because I am feminine. Is this a construct? Perhaps. And I do believe that the physical objects/colors/whatever we ascribe to gender are socially constructed. But the divide itself is not, and no matter how humanity evolved, there would be 'masculine' things and 'feminine' things because men and women want to express their identify and clearly gender is a large part of identity. So maybe pink is a construct, but there was always going to be 'girl' colors and 'boy' colors IMO.

I also am extremely troubled by the attempts to degender activities/bodily functions that are female. Pregnancy and childbirth is something women do, and something women are subjucated for and suffer for around the world and throughout history. It feels like robbing women of an important part of our gender identity to take these words. Same with menstruation. Periods set girls back across the globe by denying them education. They put those same girls at risk of teen pregnancies, consequences of rape etc. Taking away the work 'woman' and 'girl' from that masks how these are things girls and women have had to fight against since the beginning of time.

Trans people were never denied the right to vote, but women were.

And of course trans people have suffered and conquered oppression and prejudice in ways extraordinarily significant and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. But I find it interesting that there is no movement to remove the word trans, no one wants to cut the T from LGBT, some trans people want to identify as trans. No one wants to stop talking about prejudice against trans people, because language is important. And if we stopped using the words than the struggle would be erased in a way. So I will continue to refer to trans people how they would like to be referred to, and to advocate for their broad acceptance in society, but I will not participate in the degendering of language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd just ignore the comments and keep on with whatever the stream of the conversations otherwise was. If your concern is not alienating them, that is the only way to go.

+1. If you don't want to engage, just ignore the comment/question move on through your stream of thought. If they bring it up again in the same conversation, I think it is okay to tell them you don't need to be reminded of pronouns and such.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't want anyone to feel discriminated against, I don't care what bathroom anyone uses, and I'm happy to address anyone by any pronouns they want. But if I'm being totally anonymously honest -- I don't really see why any person has to transition at all if gender is just a social construct, non-binary, etc.

Well, because gender is a construct, and as long as it is the norm, people will feel that they are being forced into a corner that they don’t belong in. There is a lot of pejorative and negative connotation to not fitting into your gender.

Imagine from the beginning of your life, someone tells you that you’re going to be a professional ballet dancer because when you were born, you had a certain toe configuration.

You live your life, but everyone is always telling you you you have to go to ballet class, although you like math. You go to ballet class, you wear a tutu, but really, you hate it and feel ridiculous and are wondering about the quadratic equation. Everyone keeps talking about your toes, and how important they are, and how because of them, you have to be a dancer.

You keep going, but fall a million times. Your body feels stiff and unaware and the tutu really, really itches. They keep making you go all.the.time, and it hurts every time you go. You’d rather just be doing math, and you keep telling everyone that, but they’ve already decided you’ll be a ballet dancer, but no one asked you.

Your father is a mathematician. You love spending time with him, and you look just like him, with your blue eyes and wide smile. You spend hours on end, discussion mathematics with him, and his friends, and see yourself in their bodies.

Your love your mom, but you don’t see yourself in her. Except those toes. Time spent is hard and awkward. But she does ballet, and of all the things similar to your father, it’s apparently the toes that matter, and you’re going to be a ballet dancer. You hate it, it hurts, y8r don’t identify with it, and there are things that are familiar and make you happy, but no one is listening.

Yes, there is a true different between mathematics and ballet and being forced into one when you feel you belong in the other is terrible. It would seem illogical and contradictory then for all involved to adopt a stance that the differences between mathematics and ballet are constructs and imaginary and so all happy ballerinas and happy mathematicians should pretend like they are one and the same but the ballerinas and mathematicians who feel wrongly placed should be able to advocate for moving to the other side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't want anyone to feel discriminated against, I don't care what bathroom anyone uses, and I'm happy to address anyone by any pronouns they want. But if I'm being totally anonymously honest -- I don't really see why any person has to transition at all if gender is just a social construct, non-binary, etc.

Well, because gender is a construct, and as long as it is the norm, people will feel that they are being forced into a corner that they don’t belong in. There is a lot of pejorative and negative connotation to not fitting into your gender.

Imagine from the beginning of your life, someone tells you that you’re going to be a professional ballet dancer because when you were born, you had a certain toe configuration.

You live your life, but everyone is always telling you you you have to go to ballet class, although you like math. You go to ballet class, you wear a tutu, but really, you hate it and feel ridiculous and are wondering about the quadratic equation. Everyone keeps talking about your toes, and how important they are, and how because of them, you have to be a dancer.

You keep going, but fall a million times. Your body feels stiff and unaware and the tutu really, really itches. They keep making you go all.the.time, and it hurts every time you go. You’d rather just be doing math, and you keep telling everyone that, but they’ve already decided you’ll be a ballet dancer, but no one asked you.

Your father is a mathematician. You love spending time with him, and you look just like him, with your blue eyes and wide smile. You spend hours on end, discussion mathematics with him, and his friends, and see yourself in their bodies.

Your love your mom, but you don’t see yourself in her. Except those toes. Time spent is hard and awkward. But she does ballet, and of all the things similar to your father, it’s apparently the toes that matter, and you’re going to be a ballet dancer. You hate it, it hurts, y8r don’t identify with it, and there are things that are familiar and make you happy, but no one is listening.

Yes, there is a true different between mathematics and ballet and being forced into one when you feel you belong in the other is terrible. It would seem illogical and contradictory then for all involved to adopt a stance that the differences between mathematics and ballet are constructs and imaginary and so all happy ballerinas and happy mathematicians should pretend like they are one and the same but the ballerinas and mathematicians who feel wrongly placed should be able to advocate for moving to the other side.

Agree. If you support transitioning and people's rights to be recognized thusly, then you don't get to also argue that the world around us should be de-gendered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds exhausting. I would distance myself.

This. Life is too short. If you have to deal with her, do it sporadically, in small doses, ideally in a group so there are buffers.

[Anonymous]

This scholarly paper really explains the problem with Victimhood Culture, which the OP's example is a small version of an emerging culture:

https://brill.com/view/journals/coso/13/6/article-p692_2.xml

Victimhood cultures emerge in settings, “that increasingly lack the intimacy and cultural homogeneity that once characterized towns and suburbs, but in which organized authority and public opinion remain as powerful sanctions,” they argue. “Under such conditions complaint to third parties has supplanted both toleration and negotiation. People increasingly demand help from others, and advertise their oppression as evidence that they deserve respect and assistance. Thus we might call this moral culture a culture of victimhood ... the moral status of the victim, at its nadir in honor cultures, has risen to new heights.”

Many of us grew up in either an Honor Culture or a Dignity Culture. In Honor Cultures, "Honorable people are sensitive to insult, and so they would understand that microaggressions, even if unintentional, are severe offenses that demand a serious response,” they write. “But honor cultures value unilateral aggression and disparage appeals for help. Public complaints that advertise or even exaggerate one’s own victimization and need for sympathy would be anathema to a person of honor.”

Whereas “Members of a dignity culture, on the other hand, would see no shame in appealing to third parties, but they would not approve of such appeals for minor and merely verbal offenses. Instead they would likely counsel either confronting the offender directly to discuss the issue, or better yet, ignoring the remarks altogether.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would be direct and push back. Like for something like the ladybug thing, I'd say, "In this case, I feel certain the ladybug doesn't mind. But I work hard not to misgender people. I think those things are different, don't you?" I might also point out to my friend that even with people, it's complicated. There are people who would be offended by being called "they" because they feel their gender should be obvious. Shouldn't we also respect their desire to be called "she" or "he"? "They" can be a form of misgendering as well.

And the same with the fabric pattern. Your friend is assuming that if we just adopt genderless language, that will solve the problem. But it doesn't -- some people are trans, some people are non-binary, but what about someone who is femme or butch? Their gender presentation matters to them. The concept of "feminine" and "masculine" matters to them. And yes, a floral pattern is feminine, not masculine. That doesn't mean only a woman may wear it or like it. It means that's the gendered association our culture has with it. You can have a conversation about why, if you like, that could be interesting.

But your friend is actually wrong. She can and should be very strong about making sure people don't misgender her child and asserting her child's right to define their gender for themselves. No issues there. But your friend doesn't get to dictate the elimination of all gendered language from your lives -- that's not realistic and it's actually not respectful of people for whom gender is actually a really important part of their identity, which includes many trans and others LGBTQ+ people. The idea that we are heading for a genderless, neutral future is false and not actually a very open minded attitude. We should talk about and celebrate and explore gender, not try to eliminate it.

According to the Woke Police Mom. She, and only she, will be the one to tell us which words are acceptable, will scold us when they have changed, and will tell us which new words to use.

[Anonymous]

The use of the word master in "master bedroom" has NOTHING to do with slaves. It just means main or principal. The same meaning is used for "master key" or "master list."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Their child is probably not actually gender non-conforming at all but has likely picked up clues that one way to win parental approval is to act that way.

+1. You hang with nuts, this is what you get. I feel sorry for all kids involved

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Their child is probably not actually gender non-conforming at all but has likely picked up clues that one way to win parental approval is to act that way.

Ok. So. Part of me really agrees with this. The non-conforming children I know (mostly) are all children of extremely liberal, woke police style parents. It's like it's almost encouraged.

But then, OTOH, perhaps it's the progressive parents who allow their kids to be more "true" to their selves, and maybe gender nonconformity is more common than many of us assume.

In any case, it might be a bit from column A and a bit from column B.

The ladybug thing is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Agree. If you support transitioning and people's rights to be recognized thusly, then you don't get to also argue that the world around us should be de-gendered.

This. I believe in trans rights and I believe people should choose whatever gender expression they want. I am a straight cis woman, but I have a somewhat masculine gender presentation. It's what feels most right to me. I do have a feminine side, too, but I am also very drawn to more masculine, or sometimes gender-bending clothes and hairstyles. Sometimes people try to label me as androgynous or non-binary, and that's not true at all. I am a woman and identify as a woman. I also have both feminine and masculine sides and identify them that way. I don't think femininity equal woman and masculinity equals man. But I do think femininity and masculinity exist (as social constructs, making them as real as money or politics or anything else that we use to define our society outside of natural laws) and I consider floral to be feminine, as do most people. If I wear a floral pattern or put something floral in my house, I am intending to convey femininity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The use of the word master in "master bedroom" has NOTHING to do with slaves. It just means main or principal. The same meaning is used for "master key" or "master list."

It was apparently first invented by Sears in 1920s:

https://www.homelight.com/blog/buyer-master-bedroom/

I like this point. The term “master bedroom” is far from the biggest racism issue plaguing real estate. Redlining, steering, and other blatantly discriminatory practices have shaped segregated neighborhoods and upheld systemic racism. Musician John Legend famously called changing the term a “fake problem” in a 2020 tweet, noting that the real problem is that agents “don’t show Black people all the properties they qualify for.” (This practice is known as steering.)

Let's go back to addressing real problems rather than fighting over labels.

[Anonymous]

I get a strong "I don't see color!" vibe from what OP's friend is doing. Like if we pretend gender doesn't exist, it will solve both misogyny and the discrimination against trans people or all LGBTQ+ people.

But just as "I don't see color" is an annoying cop out from white people who just want to avoid talking about race and the many ways that it definitely impacts our lives every day, insisting on gender-free language is a way of erasing something that is not only there but is very important to all kinds of people.

Since the friend is so "woke" I might point out to her that she's being as ignorant and dismissive as white people who claim "race shouldn't matter" or whatever. It does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get a strong "I don't see color!" vibe from what OP's friend is doing. Like if we pretend gender doesn't exist, it will solve both misogyny and the discrimination against trans people or all LGBTQ+ people.

But just as "I don't see color" is an annoying cop out from white people who just want to avoid talking about race and the many ways that it definitely impacts our lives every day, insisting on gender-free language is a way of erasing something that is not only there but is very important to all kinds of people.

Since the friend is so "woke" I might point out to her that she's being as ignorant and dismissive as white people who claim "race shouldn't matter" or whatever. It does.

It's equally dismissive to those of us whose lived experience is in a binary male or female. We're kowtowing to a population that comprises less than 1% of the U.S. population and not in ways such as overt discrimination. Rather, we are asking the other 99% to change the way many of the fundamental underpinnings of our language and culture for perceived offense rather than discrimination or the like.

[Anonymous]

i also vote for distancing. i think woke people need thicker skin and to chill.