An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

That is not a thing that "most moms" worry about. It's a bullshit argument you see primarily on the internet, not in real life. Once your kid is off to school, this isn't something anyone gives a damn about. Don't perpetuate mommy wars. Be confident in your parenting and carry on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are being intentionally provocative.

+1

Her remarks at the end of her OP were similarly provocative. Trying to sound confused and sincere while ending with digs and looking down her nose. Typical.

I was not trying to be provocative. I am trying to put it in simple terms.

I don't understand the desire to stay home. My mother always told me to always always be financially independent and never to be dependent on a man or a burden on your parents. I'm confused as to why western women desire to be provided for. There's no dignity in that. You're dependent on someone else for your livelihood.

You don't need to put anything into simple terms. Unless you believe SAHMs are dimwits, incapable of thinking in complex terms.

Comparing your upbringing to the US is faulty. American women who SAH can join the workforce at any point in time and earn money. We are not barred entry. And, unless you can work and support your family WITHOUT the income of your husband, working mothers are also financially dependent on their spouses for their livelihood. Stop kidding yourself.

Perfectly stated. Of course, the point is probably lost on the OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

It becomes a chore and a burden when it is no longer a choice or option. Duh.

That's why the privilege is having a choice- The privilege is not working and it's not staying at home. It's the choice to do either.

And also the ability to switch back and forth between the options as life and desires change. The WOHM/SAHM debate is so often framed as if every SAHM will never work again and no WOHM will ever take time off while the reality is much more fluid. I've done both, most of my SAHM friends from the baby/preschool years are now working at least part time and most full time. And, now I work FT and my DH is the one with a flexible WAH job.

I was a SAHM for several years and kept a hand in my career via freelance work. Not because we couldn't afford childcare - my salary was more than enough to cover that with some left over. Not because DH traveled a lot - he had reasonable hours and rarely traveled. I stayed home because I WANTED to be the person caring for my babies and DH was happy to have me do that too. And I worked in a field with plenty of freelancing opportunities and had seen several other women on/off ramp in our field so I felt confident I could get back in when I wanted to (which I did). And I had confidence in the strength of my marriage and the fact that we always operated as financial equals regardless of who made how much money at an particular time. All of these are great privileges and I wish all families were in the same position.

I could have written all of the above. I think the women who would argue with anything you've written have no clue how a marriage of two truly supportive individuals really works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many DCUM women will have you believe they work because they love it.

For the most part, they lie. They work because it's necessary for their family. Many would quit in a heartbeat if their financial way of life would not be affected.

+1
You will only see women on DCUM claiming they "love" their jobs. It's hysterical.

Why are you both so threatened by women who claim to like working? For many women it may not be about loving the work, it's about getting out of the house, being forced to think and use your intellect, getting skills like public speaking, having time to yourself, having a team of colleagues, having the chance to go out for a coffee and getting paid to do all of the above. That's me, and my actual "work" is not all that interesting, but I do like working. If I had all day to myself while DC is in school, I'd end up doing nothing. Many women would quit in a heartbeat for about one or two years, and then they'd realize what it means to stay home, and they'd want to work again (I know this personally).

And the fact that you think it's "hysterical." Should all women just stay at home and never work again? Would that make you happy if we were all like you?

I seriously doubt anyone is "threatened by women who claim to like working." You're clearly not seeing the irony here. OP started a post for the specific purpose of (yet again) demeaning women who choose to SAH. Would you say she's threatened by SAHMs? How about all of her subsequent posts, reiterating how she could never be a SAHM because it has no "dignity"? What a complete and utter hypocrite she is - and you are, as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant from India. While India and Pakistan - both are third world countries, women are encouraged to become educated in all fields - Humanities, Liberal Arts, STEM - in India. I am used to seeing so many professional women in India, even in fields that are traditionally male dominated (in armed forces, commercial pilots, police, STEM), that I feel the struggles of an educated, working, urban mom in India is very similar to that of a working, educated, urban mom in this country. Namely, how to balance home-work life, especially when children are involved.

OP, I am glad that you are happy working and appreciate the opportunity to be financially independent. Your feelings of gratefulness for working has been informed by the upbringing that you had where you were pigeonholed into a role. This kind of financial freedom you talk about has been afforded to women in many societies, where civil liberties are granted to people regardless of gender, religion, age, sexual orientation, disability etc. That is the purpose of a true democracy.

I wanted to add that I have many friends in India who transitioned from working to being SAHMs. Every woman wants to do what is best for their family. Sometimes it is to be a SAHM and sometimes it is to be a WOHM. I am happy that I had this choice in India and also in US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are being intentionally provocative.

+1

Her remarks at the end of her OP were similarly provocative. Trying to sound confused and sincere while ending with digs and looking down her nose. Typical.

I was not trying to be provocative. I am trying to put it in simple terms.

I don't understand the desire to stay home. My mother always told me to always always be financially independent and never to be dependent on a man or a burden on your parents. I'm confused as to why western women desire to be provided for. There's no dignity in that. You're dependent on someone else for your livelihood.

Interesting that it doesn't similarly bother you that your children are completely dependent on someone other than their parents for their care.

We get it. You "don't understand the desire to stay home." You don't have to understand. No one cares what your opinion is. But thanks for sharing!

When your 5 year old goes to kindergarten, who are they "completely dependent on for their care?"

+1
We're waiting.

And the rest of us are still waiting to hear why it doesn't bother you that your non-school-aged child is completely dependent on someone else for their care. After all, PP is just so concerned that SAHMs are "completely dependent on someone else for their livelihood." Seems only fair she (and you) should be equally concerned about your own kids. But clearly the irony is lost on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

+1 And, how is me caring for my baby being less productive than a nanny caring for that baby? Life is about more than "productivity". I'll get back to billing my hours in a few years.

Exactly. Especially if that nanny is a...gasp...working Mom? Or does caring for your children only count as productive when someone else is doing it?

Isn't the hypocrisy astounding? Only here on DCUM would you hear anyone deriding a mom (or dad, for that matter) for taking time off of work to care for THEIR OWN children. Clearly, we're not dealing with the brightest bulbs here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are being intentionally provocative.

+1

Her remarks at the end of her OP were similarly provocative. Trying to sound confused and sincere while ending with digs and looking down her nose. Typical.

I was not trying to be provocative. I am trying to put it in simple terms.

I don't understand the desire to stay home. My mother always told me to always always be financially independent and never to be dependent on a man or a burden on your parents. I'm confused as to why western women desire to be provided for. There's no dignity in that. You're dependent on someone else for your livelihood.

Interesting that it doesn't similarly bother you that your children are completely dependent on someone other than their parents for their care.

We get it. You "don't understand the desire to stay home." You don't have to understand. No one cares what your opinion is. But thanks for sharing!

When your 5 year old goes to kindergarten, who are they "completely dependent on for their care?"

+1
We're waiting.

And the rest of us are still waiting to hear why it doesn't bother you that your non-school-aged child is completely dependent on someone else for their care. After all, PP is just so concerned that SAHMs are "completely dependent on someone else for their livelihood." Seems only fair she (and you) should be equally concerned about your own kids. But clearly the irony is lost on you.

I don't have any non school-aged children. I work when my kids are in school. I telework so I'm 3 min away from school if something comes up during the day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I could easily work and support myself and kids on my salary as a GS-15 WAH Fed with benefits and flexibility.

He makes a lot more than me, but I'd survive with my $175k/salary.

It is hard for somebody that stopped working at 27-32 years old to him back in the workforce at 45+. Really hard. Don't fool yourself--especially with this economy. This is why it's wise to downscale if you have the luxury--2-3 days per week or telework, but I'd be careful about just quitting with 60-years of life left.

I had a lot of SAHM friends when we had babies and nearly all were back at work within 5 years. Yes, staying out for 15+ years is a different ballgame but those people are probably not expecting to jump back on the same career track.

My mom quit work as a secretary when she got married in the late 1960s and went back to work 16 years later. Despite having to completely learn how to work a computer, she was still hireable as an admin and ended up doing that for over 20 yrs before retiring. Life is long and circumstances and desires change. Not taking the time you want with your babies for a couple years because you worry about your employability 15 years from now seems a sad way to live.

Your mom was much younger when she re-entered the workforce and the economy for jobs for older people not good. I know several women that got to 40s, husband left and they didn't get the windfall they thought they would. In fact, they lost the house. The husband only had to pay mortgage for two years---then she had to sell or buy him out. Not pretty.

Really? You know "several" women in this exact situation? How coincidental! I have a few unhappy anecdotes I could share about dual-income couples who wound up in horrendously acrimonious divorces. Would my sharing those stories mean that all dual-income couples will wind up that way?

Your anecdotes are just that - yours. They mean nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Pakistani immigrant in the United States and I love this country and the liberties I am offered here as a young woman. When I peruse this website, I am often shocked at the bitterness that seems to engulf most working women/moms on DCUM. Where I come from, women are not allowed to work. The woman's place is considered to be the kitchen and her primary duty in life is to bear children and care for them. This attitude is so prevalent that many across the country deem it unnecessary to send their girls to school.

Among the upper classes, girls do receive quite a good liberal arts education at their exclusive private schools. These girls, however, are expected to stick to "feminine" subjects such as literature, arts, painting, music and history. Upon graduation they are sent to either private liberal arts colleges abroad where they obtain a degree in a field such as art or photography and then when they return back to the country after graduating, they promptly get married off to wealthy men at least 5 years their senior.

These women then, live all the trappings of the upper/upper middle class life that so many on here wish for. They have chauffeurs, chefs and an army of servants. Their primary role is to bear children and groom them for the upper class life. They never have to worry about money since they are married to "provider husbands" and all they do is host tea parties and gossip about each other.

Some of them are really happy with this set up. Many however, are not. Many girls get sucked into this system without ever having a say in it. They don't usually have a choice in studying what they want or marrying who they want or being someone other than a tea party hosting society wife. Many women also deeply resent that fact that they never get to earn their own income. They are supported by their parents in childhood to their husbands and in laws after marriage. This obviously puts them in a supreme economic disadvantage and dependent on their families and husbands. If things aren't going well, the women have no way out except to stick it out and suffer. Many have never had the chance to find true love, develop a sense of independence or live life on their own terms.

Among the lower classes things are worse. Along with the lack of freedom and autonomy, the women here kept in poverty since working outside of the home is considered shameful. Some do venture out and get employed as servants or clothes washers but they are paid poorly and usually mistreated, sexually assaulted etc.

Coming to America and living the average life here is a dream. I LOVE that I have economic independence from my parents and my husband. I work, not necessarily because I WANT to. It fulfills me, helps me develop my skills and grow my mind and help contribute e to my household. It is a privilege to be able to earn a paycheck doing work I want and wear what I want and go where I want.

I'd never ever take this for granted. I don't envy SAHM wives at all! I love being able to contribute to society and earn my own living. It is a privilege afforded to so few!

This is utter BS.

I don't know what backwards, trashy people you know from but there are more women in medical school in Pakistan than men.

Most of the women in my family work (as doctors, lawyers, engineers, published journalists and authors, very, very successful business owners, professors (at American and Pakistani universities, architects, etc) and have attended the following colleges and graduate schools: Oxford, Cambridge, Duke, Harvard, Princeton, the University of Michigan, Williams, Cornell, Stanford, RISD, Brown, Yale, Tufts, Wellesley, MIT, Johns Hopkins, Agha Khan and Dow Medical Colleges (in Pakistan), etc, etc --- and that's JUST my sisters and first cousins).

And these women (including me) have been supported by their husbands, brothers, aunts & uncles, etc.

You're either a troll or have kept very bad company.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Pakistani immigrant in the United States and I love this country and the liberties I am offered here as a young woman. When I peruse this website, I am often shocked at the bitterness that seems to engulf most working women/moms on DCUM. Where I come from, women are not allowed to work. The woman's place is considered to be the kitchen and her primary duty in life is to bear children and care for them. This attitude is so prevalent that many across the country deem it unnecessary to send their girls to school.

Among the upper classes, girls do receive quite a good liberal arts education at their exclusive private schools. These girls, however, are expected to stick to "feminine" subjects such as literature, arts, painting, music and history. Upon graduation they are sent to either private liberal arts colleges abroad where they obtain a degree in a field such as art or photography and then when they return back to the country after graduating, they promptly get married off to wealthy men at least 5 years their senior.

These women then, live all the trappings of the upper/upper middle class life that so many on here wish for. They have chauffeurs, chefs and an army of servants. Their primary role is to bear children and groom them for the upper class life. They never have to worry about money since they are married to "provider husbands" and all they do is host tea parties and gossip about each other.

Some of them are really happy with this set up. Many however, are not. Many girls get sucked into this system without ever having a say in it. They don't usually have a choice in studying what they want or marrying who they want or being someone other than a tea party hosting society wife. Many women also deeply resent that fact that they never get to earn their own income. They are supported by their parents in childhood to their husbands and in laws after marriage. This obviously puts them in a supreme economic disadvantage and dependent on their families and husbands. If things aren't going well, the women have no way out except to stick it out and suffer. Many have never had the chance to find true love, develop a sense of independence or live life on their own terms.

Among the lower classes things are worse. Along with the lack of freedom and autonomy, the women here kept in poverty since working outside of the home is considered shameful. Some do venture out and get employed as servants or clothes washers but they are paid poorly and usually mistreated, sexually assaulted etc.

Coming to America and living the average life here is a dream. I LOVE that I have economic independence from my parents and my husband. I work, not necessarily because I WANT to. It fulfills me, helps me develop my skills and grow my mind and help contribute e to my household. It is a privilege to be able to earn a paycheck doing work I want and wear what I want and go where I want.

I'd never ever take this for granted. I don't envy SAHM wives at all! I love being able to contribute to society and earn my own living. It is a privilege afforded to so few!

Wow! I am a pakistani american too... But wow... Stereotypical much!!!! You have so many assumptions in your narration above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lovely post, OP. Not sure why everyone is deliberately missing the point of it. I read the OP as saying that she is happy to work because she recognizes the privilege of being able to work. I think the perspective she is intending to bring to the SAHM/WOHM debate is that there are people who cannot choose. You may say that here in the US there are also people who cannot choose, they have to WOHM. I believe that the OP said this was also true of lower income people in Pakistan. But for middle class/upper middle class/upper class people, in the US, there is a choice. In Pakistan, there is not. That is the point that is being made. I think it is interesting.

There is choice! Pakistani society is very diverse depending on your economic structure, and there are all kind of choices avaiable or not, just like any other country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lovely post, OP. Not sure why everyone is deliberately missing the point of it. I read the OP as saying that she is happy to work because she recognizes the privilege of being able to work. I think the perspective she is intending to bring to the SAHM/WOHM debate is that there are people who cannot choose. You may say that here in the US there are also people who cannot choose, they have to WOHM. I believe that the OP said this was also true of lower income people in Pakistan. But for middle class/upper middle class/upper class people, in the US, there is a choice. In Pakistan, there is not. That is the point that is being made. I think it is interesting.

There is choice! Pakistani society is very diverse depending on your economic structure, and there are all kind of choices avaiable or not, just like any other country.

This. As a Pakistani (married to an Indian) I can tell you that professional women in those countries have far more support than working women in America. They outnumber men in colleges and grad schools and when they work they have domestic help as well as relatives who can carry the load at home. In fact, an Indian friend of mine in New York is an investment banker and her mother (a very successful executive with a multinational in India) retired and moved to NYC when my friend had her first baby so that she could oversee her daughter's home and the care of her child. It's a perfect set up -- the daughter is enjoying a flourishing career and the mother has just retired from one and is consulting now so she can still flex her intellectual muscles.

AND let me remind you: India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have ALL had female heads of state and look what heck we are giving to a woman trying to become ours.

I don't know whether I feel fury at or pity for the "OP".

[Anonymous]

I am so glad I grew up in India. Women grossly outnumber men as engineers, scientists, doctors, army, pilots... you name it! Girls are rarely restricted to home and hearth unless it is their personal choice. Surprised to hear this about Pakistan.

[Anonymous]

Choice. Freedom is in having a choice.