Christmas Trees

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.

The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.

DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.

He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.

I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.

OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.

OP children are Jewish. Jewish goes through the mother's blood lines or one has to convert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP. I admire your genuine curiosity and your reasonable tone.

I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.

I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc

I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.

I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.

I do not put it out for my husband. I do it for a few family members. If he wants a tree he can buy one. It has absolutely no meaning to me and I do not find anything secular about them like those making them out to be. It is a Christian tradition and my child and I are not Christian. Its simply there for a few hours to take pictures of the gifts for relatives and that's it. We do movies and Chinese food like the rest of the Jews on Christmas. It is inappropriate for a Jew to have a tree no matter how you spin it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.

The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.

DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.

He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.

I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.

OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.

OP children are Jewish. Jewish goes through the mother's blood lines or one has to convert.

I understand that. I also understand that the family -- the whole family -- is both Jewish and Christian. OP has already compromised her family's religious identity. The tree is just a symbol of a compromise that she has already made. It isn't fair to the Christian members of the family to demand that sacrifice everything for her and her kids.

People who aren't ready to compromise shouldn't marry outside their faith. If they do marry outside the faith, they should compromise on secular cutlural stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. I admire your genuine curiosity and your reasonable tone.

I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.

I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc

I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.

I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.

I do not put it out for my husband. I do it for a few family members. If he wants a tree he can buy one. It has absolutely no meaning to me and I do not find anything secular about them like those making them out to be. It is a Christian tradition and my child and I are not Christian. Its simply there for a few hours to take pictures of the gifts for relatives and that's it. We do movies and Chinese food like the rest of the Jews on Christmas. It is inappropriate for a Jew to have a tree no matter how you spin it.

A half--dozen people on this thread have explained how Christmas trees are a secular symbol of the holiday. Despite that, you insist on telling us about our own culture and what it means. So glad that I have Jews to interpret my culutre for me! I wouldn't know what to do without you telling me what my culutre means!

Next thing you know you'll be telling people how to be REALLY black and telling Hindus how to worship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. I admire your genuine curiosity and your reasonable tone.

I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.

I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc

I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.

I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.

I do not put it out for my husband. I do it for a few family members. If he wants a tree he can buy one. It has absolutely no meaning to me and I do not find anything secular about them like those making them out to be. It is a Christian tradition and my child and I are not Christian. Its simply there for a few hours to take pictures of the gifts for relatives and that's it. We do movies and Chinese food like the rest of the Jews on Christmas. It is inappropriate for a Jew to have a tree no matter how you spin it.

A half--dozen people on this thread have explained how Christmas trees are a secular symbol of the holiday. Despite that, you insist on telling us about our own culture and what it means. So glad that I have Jews to interpret my culutre for me! I wouldn't know what to do without you telling me what my culutre means!

Next thing you know you'll be telling people how to be REALLY black and telling Hindus how to worship.

I'm a new poster on this thread of the topic. I'm also Jewish, and, to me, this reads just the opposite. The Christmas tree may be a secular symbol for Christians, but, as a Jew, the distinction between secular and religious symobols is pretty slim. I can only speak from my perspective, but, while it's interesting to hear what a Christmas tree means to Christians, to me, its one of the largest cultural symbols of Christmas and even Christianity. I would defintiely not feel comfortable having one in my home. Judiasm is both a culture, and a religion. Day to day, the cultural aspects of Judiasm are more relevent to my life than the religious aspects. Due to that, I'm sure, I'm just as sensitive to what is culturally Christian as what is religiously Christian. Even more so, in fact, as what is culturally Christian is often presented as what is just "normal" in our socieity.

I'm dismayed that many people are reading this opinion as anti Christmas tree. It is not at all. I can admire Christmas trees and lights as beautiful and meaningful while still feeling like I would never have them in my house. So, I'm just asking folks to consider that perhaps, just as us, as Jews cannot tell Christians what Christmas means to them, Christians (and even other Jews, for that matter) cannot tell a Jewish family what a Christmas tree should mean to them

[Anonymous]

This is such a nasty thread and I am amazed that nobody wants to call out the op.

It is your stepdaughters home for the time being as well. She knowingly married a man with a Christian daughter. Let her have a damn tree - it's not going to hurt you.

As a Christian I would never want someone under my roof to feel unloved including the celebration of their religious holidays.

I think sour op wants to pretend she doesn't have stepchildren, or worse, is afraid folks will gossip at her temple about her Christmas tree.

I feel sorry for that stepdaughter who clearly has no home. I guess she's just a shiksa though.

[Anonymous]

Probably the real problem here is nobody at temple knows of the shiksa stepdaughter. If someone spies a tree in op's window, op will be outed!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. I admire your genuine curiosity and your reasonable tone.

I think you raise a fascinating question ... why the tree bothers you more than the far more religious nativity etc. I suspect it is because the tree is the biggest symbol of this Christian holiday ... even if it is not an especially religious symbol. Also the tree is, i think most agree, a really lovely tradition, and perhaps one that will entice children more than say, an angel. You collect ornaments year after year and it becomes very sentimental and very symbolic of this festive time once a year. It reminds many of us of our childhoods. My daughter cries every year when it is time to take it down. Just saying.

I can also appreciate how offensive and over the top the onslaught of Christmas music/decorations/lights/etc can be to a non-Christian. If it is any consolation, I find all that offensive too. And I always wonder how the Jews among us can stand it. I think it shows Christmas in a really bad light. But the family tree is entirely different, at least to me, it symbolizes the noncommercial aspect of Christmas ... coming home for the holidays, being with loved ones, etc

I do agree with some posters that the simple fact that you married a Christian man means that you have somewhat assimilated but ... just like the way different views about trees ... different Jews have different opinions about what it means to assimilate.

I'd just add that I find many of the comments on here about how the tree needs to be avoided at all costs highly offensive, like the woman who married a Christian but resentfully pulls out the one foot tree for two hours ever year.

I do not put it out for my husband. I do it for a few family members. If he wants a tree he can buy one. It has absolutely no meaning to me and I do not find anything secular about them like those making them out to be. It is a Christian tradition and my child and I are not Christian. Its simply there for a few hours to take pictures of the gifts for relatives and that's it. We do movies and Chinese food like the rest of the Jews on Christmas. It is inappropriate for a Jew to have a tree no matter how you spin it.

A half--dozen people on this thread have explained how Christmas trees are a secular symbol of the holiday. Despite that, you insist on telling us about our own culture and what it means. So glad that I have Jews to interpret my culutre for me! I wouldn't know what to do without you telling me what my culutre means!

Next thing you know you'll be telling people how to be REALLY black and telling Hindus how to worship.

I'm a new poster on this thread of the topic. I'm also Jewish, and, to me, this reads just the opposite. The Christmas tree may be a secular symbol for Christians, but, as a Jew, the distinction between secular and religious symobols is pretty slim. I can only speak from my perspective, but, while it's interesting to hear what a Christmas tree means to Christians, to me, its one of the largest cultural symbols of Christmas and even Christianity. I would defintiely not feel comfortable having one in my home. Judiasm is both a culture, and a religion. Day to day, the cultural aspects of Judiasm are more relevent to my life than the religious aspects. Due to that, I'm sure, I'm just as sensitive to what is culturally Christian as what is religiously Christian. Even more so, in fact, as what is culturally Christian is often presented as what is just "normal" in our socieity.

I'm dismayed that many people are reading this opinion as anti Christmas tree. It is not at all. I can admire Christmas trees and lights as beautiful and meaningful while still feeling like I would never have them in my house. So, I'm just asking folks to consider that perhaps, just as us, as Jews cannot tell Christians what Christmas means to them, Christians (and even other Jews, for that matter) cannot tell a Jewish family what a Christmas tree should mean to them[/quote]

OP doesn't have a "Jewish family." She has a family that is both Jewish and Christian. Despite that she wants to keep her house purely Jewish.

This is why non-Jews shouldn't date, fuck or marry Jews. Jews just aren't capable of making an interfaith/intercultural marriage work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.

The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.

DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.

He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.

I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.

OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.

OP children are Jewish. Jewish goes through the mother's blood lines or one has to convert.

I understand that. I also understand that the family -- the whole family -- is both Jewish and Christian. OP has already compromised her family's religious identity. The tree is just a symbol of a compromise that she has already made. It isn't fair to the Christian members of the family to demand that sacrifice everything for her and her kids.

People who aren't ready to compromise shouldn't marry outside their faith. If they do marry outside the faith, they should compromise on secular cutlural stuff.

The whole family is not both Jewish and Christian. She did not compromise her family's religious identity. She is Jewish - she is not both. Her children are Jewish by bloodlines. Its not appropriate to have a Christmas tree in a Jewish home if they are raising the children Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.

The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.

DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.

He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.

I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.

OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.

OP children are Jewish. Jewish goes through the mother's blood lines or one has to convert.

Thank you for the Jewish law primer. Her stepdaughter is a Christian. What does Jewish law say about that- throw her in a closet? Op's temple wouldn't want to convert her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.

The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.

DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.

He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.

I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.

OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.

OP children are Jewish. Jewish goes through the mother's blood lines or one has to convert.

I understand that. I also understand that the family -- the whole family -- is both Jewish and Christian. OP has already compromised her family's religious identity. The tree is just a symbol of a compromise that she has already made. It isn't fair to the Christian members of the family to demand that sacrifice everything for her and her kids.

People who aren't ready to compromise shouldn't marry outside their faith. If they do marry outside the faith, they should compromise on secular cutlural stuff.

The whole family is not both Jewish and Christian. She did not compromise her family's religious identity. She is Jewish - she is not both. Her children are Jewish by bloodlines. Its not appropriate to have a Christmas tree in a Jewish home if they are raising the children Jewish.

So why is there a Christian living in this "Jewish home." Can you find no love or compassion for the goy stepdaughter?

[Anonymous]

The whole premises of this is that many Jews on this thread apparently feel the Jewish children have superior rights to the Christian child.

[Anonymous]

Can't the poor stepdaughter go to her mom or grandparents house to celebrate? I really cannot imagine how depressed I'd be if I was a teenager living in a house that wouldn't celebrate Christmas.

Do you allow her to celebrate the high holidays with you? Or is she not allowed because she's not Jewish?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP--

Here's a light suggestion--

Do the small tree for SD. As you celebrate Hannukah, have little gifts for SD to give to her younger step-siblings for each of the 8 days---having her hide them under the tree each night. Instead of "Elf on a Shelf", you'll have "Toy from a Goy". Fun bonding for big step-sis and little ones---if they, like most little ones, love the attention from the oldest.

Except for the multi-day activity, this sounds like St. Nicholas Day (December). Christmas has changed a lot in the past 75 years. Christmas Eve and the days leading up to Christmas (Advent) were more solemn and anticipatory. Trees were not put up until Christmas Eve and the big gift day was January 6 to celebrate the coming of the 3 Kings (epiphany). And trees stayed up until February 2nd (Candlemas) -- the day Jesus was presented in the temple. Some cultures and families still adhere to this. My point is the holiday has evolved as has the meaning of the tree (it was pagan, then adopted by Germanic Christains, then adopted by Christians in other parts of Europe and the world). Today marketing and shoppers are driving the secularization of the tree and the menorah, and furthering the evolution of their meanings.

When you talk to DH, you might want to to discuss his thoughts about Easter. Plenty of adopted pagan symbolism there too (eggs, bunnies).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The whole premises of this is that many Jews on this thread apparently feel the Jewish children have superior rights to the Christian child.

Sorry, that's a total straw man. Not one poster here has advocated totally banning Christmas or not allowing her the celebrate. People have just expressed their levels of comfort with various aspects of Chrustmas celebration. There's a lot of room between 8 foot tree and banning the holiday.