How to talk race and diversity with a preschooler?

[Anonymous]

Thanks, 14:31. No, not in DC, though plenty of similarly historic places in our city that could prompt similar conversations (and we will be back this summer and definitely planning to hit the Smithsonian this time since our last trip was during the shutdown, so can certainly extend the dialogue then!)

And yes, I definitely consider these as teaching moments vs. discipline moments, too. Certainly DS does not seem to understand yet that it is not okay to judge people or treat them differently based on race, so we need to instill that concept. But more broadly, he *is* allowed to like or dislike people on his own terms--I'm not planning to force him to be friends with everyone. I *do* plan to force him to treat everyone well and fairly, though, and I want him to understand how his thinking is flawed in making a play v. don't play determinations based on skin color, rather than based on getting to know the kids or the hairdresser, or whoever. (I will note that after the comment and subsequent discussion about not playing with kids with dark skin at the party, we went to said party, where he played plenty with all of the kids, including several kids of color, and I didn't hear a word about it afterwards--I debated bringing it up to remind him that he'd had fun playing with everyone, but wasn't sure if that would help or hurt.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, do you live in DC?

I took my (white) son to the Woolworth's lunch counter, and we talked about how people had been mean to people with black and brown skin, and had not let them sit there, and in other places. And we talked about how there were people who didn't think that was okay, and how they were very brave and stood up for their rights. So not just a message about "everyone is the same inside, all people are equal" -- which is important, but *also* a specific message about how people are not always treated equally, and that it's specifically black and brown people who've had bad treatment.

And we've had other opportunities to have that conversation -- e.g. his school did a bunch of activities for Black history month, which allowed us to have conversations about *why* there is Black history month.

To the PP who made the analogy about hitting with a stick (and also, I'm thinking maybe you are the same person who was concerned that white parents weren't being emphatic? serious? enough about this) (aarrgh, not sure if I'm talking to one person or more here, anyway, here goes); I think what you said about this being an emphatic and serious discussion is definitely how I'd handle it.

But I think I wouldn't discipline my child in the same way I would if he hit someone, and here's my thinking. My kid knows it's not okay to hit someone, and pretty much our who society is on board with that. If grown-ups do it, they go to prison. It's reinforced really well, everywhere.

But I think it's maybe easier for kids to make mistakes about racism, or to not know that what they are doing is wrong -- because we're really *not* clear, as a society, that it's not okay to be racist. People get sent to jail for hurting people, oh, except if those people are black men. There's socially condoned racism all around us. So when my kid makes that kind of mistake, I see my job as teaching more than disciplining, if that makes sense? I hate to punish a kid *when the kid doesn't understand they are doing something wrong* -- but it doesn't mean I don't think it warrants a serious and emphatic (and immediate) conversation.

I am the poster to whom you are referring. I think you misunderstood me. Maybe you did not read all of the previous posts, because I was responding to posters who said that it was wrong to be emphatic. I did not say anything about white parents are not being emphatic. I was saying that there is nothing wrong with being emphatic and did not understand why others labeled this as the wrong approach. Just wanted to clear that up for ya.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:White parent here. When we talk about skin color we say lighter and darker. I've never actually said "white" or "black" because those aren't accurate descriptions. My DH has dark olive skin and I'm super pale so we have a lot of shades in our family alone. That made it easier to extend to other people. Sometimes skin is lighter, sometimes darker. No big deal.

We can get into ethnicities and cultural differences as my kids become aware of them. When they were very little they just talked about the differences they could see.

And Asians? Do you say "yellow" when you speak of them? And Native Americans..."red?" How about Hispanics- those "brown" skinned people?

Being white and trying to "extend" to other people based on skin color sounds terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:White parent here. When we talk about skin color we say lighter and darker. I've never actually said "white" or "black" because those aren't accurate descriptions. My DH has dark olive skin and I'm super pale so we have a lot of shades in our family alone. That made it easier to extend to other people. Sometimes skin is lighter, sometimes darker. No big deal.

We can get into ethnicities and cultural differences as my kids become aware of them. When they were very little they just talked about the differences they could see.

You are doing your kids a disservice. They should understand what people mean when they say white and black or asian or whatever even if it isn't technically accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The all caps and VERY CLEAR RIGHT AWAY comment clearly gave many of is the impression of someone swooping in on their child with the kind of severe reaction that gets a kid's attention and lets the kid know they have done something very wrong. In addition, the fact that the other discussion we've suggested strike you as insufficient shows they you want the parent to be really emphatic. This is a 3.5 year old. Plenty of kids will do what it takes to avoid that kind of strong reaction from mom again, which means not saying anything racist to mom but doesn't mean not thinking it or saying it elsewhere.

Ok -- let me be clear, I do not believe that emphatic suggests yelling, shaming, screaming, or being mean.
By, emphatic I mean very clear, very straightforward, and that this is a very important topic.
To me, the subject of how we talk about and think about people is just as important as safety issues, does anyone think being emphatic about safety issues is wrong?
I was emphatic with my child about this issue, and we have an open dialogue. It started when DC was a preschooler.
I truly do not understand your line of thinking -- it really baffles my mind.

You are emphatic about not running into the street because what you care about is action. With racism we care about thought, not just deeds. You can't force a person to have a particular thought. You have to teach it, show them, make sure they come back to you with doubts and fears.

Everything you said about running in the street applies to race. And I hate to break it to you, but racism is not just thoughts, it's also actions. Just like I teach that we don't play with fire and later talk about fire hurting and consequences of actions, same thing applies to race. Makes no sense to think that telling a kid not to identify people by race is going to prevent them from feeling comfortable talking to you about thoughts and fears, etc. related to race. it is an ongoing education and conversation....why is that hard to understand.

I'm going to try this one more time and then stop.
1) I clearly state that what we care about is thoughts and deeds. You don't have to break anything to me. I stand by my position that if you effectively deal with the thoughts, good actions will follow, whereas if you squelch the words but not the thoughts, you have a problem that is now harder to fix.

2) Thus, my obvious concern is that if you come down too strongly on a young child you effectively stop the words but not the thoughts. Surely you aren't taking the position that it is impossible to scare a kid into silence or outward submission by coming on too strong. Racism is a terrible dreadful thing that cuts at the center of humanity. If I tell my child anything like that, even in childish language, the first time she or he at 3yo says something that is racist, I have clearly told the child they have done something terrible. But the message we want to convey is not "you're terrible" but "that statement is untrue, let me show you how you already know it to be untrue." And beyond that, "let me continue to discuss with you how it is untrue by making this a topic you the child feel comfortable raising with me." We can disagree about how to get that across but unless you are saying children don't ever stop engaging on topic in response to a strong parental reaction, we have to agree that this is a possibility and one to be avoided. I'll say again, avoided not to protect the feelings of the 3yo over other kids, but to get to our goal, which is to extinguish racist thoughts, words, and actions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:11, on 4, if the kid learns he can't say those things to you, the parent, but he keeps thinking them, then we have a serious problem. If she can't have an ongoing dialogue with him about these ideas she won't be able to ensure he's gotten to the truth of equality. That's why a number of us are counseling against being so emphatic that you shame the kid into silence with his mother, who is the only person to whom he seems to have made these remarks.

HUH? I don't get the idea of telling someone "that's not how we talk about people", "that's not what we say about people" is shaming a kid. ESPECIALLY, when all along I, and other posters, have said it is part of an ongoing dialogue and education. That just seems very off to me. I tell my kids all sorts of stuff that we do not do, and teach them what and how to do the right thing. There is no shame involved. Where in the world did the shame come in?

Lady. This argument apparently about parenting/discipline styles for preschoolers, not racism. Many of us believe that shame is not an effective parenting tool for preschoolers. Feel free to believe differently, but don't tack that up to the rest of us being racist or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:White parent here. When we talk about skin color we say lighter and darker. I've never actually said "white" or "black" because those aren't accurate descriptions. My DH has dark olive skin and I'm super pale so we have a lot of shades in our family alone. That made it easier to extend to other people. Sometimes skin is lighter, sometimes darker. No big deal.

We can get into ethnicities and cultural differences as my kids become aware of them. When they were very little they just talked about the differences they could see.

You are doing your kids a disservice. They should understand what people mean when they say white and black or asian or whatever even if it isn't technically accurate.

I agree. It could backfire on you. I was surprised recently when my 10 year old nephew didn't know what to call someone who was black. At all. He had a difficult and awkward time coming up with words. Now, whether skin color was even germane to the discussion, I don't know. But it's fine to teach a kid that people are called white, black, AA, Asian, whatever. And that we call people what they prefer to be called.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would address it matter of factly and in terms he can understand. I would NOT shame him as he is too little to recognize what he is saying. I WOULD ask him where he got the idea. Kids do come up with crazy, inappropriate things on their own but that is very specific and he probably either heard or misunderstood something.

+1 to all of this. 9 times out of 10 when my child has said something like this it came from someone at school. These times serve as an opportunity to say "some people think X, but we do not, and it is wrong to judge people based on where they live, what they look like, their abilities, their religion, etc." We make it very clear that we will not abide such judgmental talk or discriminatory behavior in our house. You have to lead by example and you can do that by being matter of fact, not by shaming. You want your child to talk to you so you can share your values - not shut them down with shame or punishment.

OH MY GOOODNESS PEOPLE WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SHAMING THEIR KIDS -- WHO - WHO SAID IT PLEASE -- WHO SAID IT??

Um, this poster said it?

"Wrong, wrong and wrong. Shame is a valuable emotion and this is something I would absolutely risk shaming them for. This is hate speech and needs to stop NOW. It is NOT normal to form a like or dislike to the color of a person's skin!!! I was a preschool teacher for ten years before I became a mother and I have NEVER heard this as a normal stage of development either in work or when I was getting my degree."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:11, on 4, if the kid learns he can't say those things to you, the parent, but he keeps thinking them, then we have a serious problem. If she can't have an ongoing dialogue with him about these ideas she won't be able to ensure he's gotten to the truth of equality. That's why a number of us are counseling against being so emphatic that you shame the kid into silence with his mother, who is the only person to whom he seems to have made these remarks.

HUH? I don't get the idea of telling someone "that's not how we talk about people", "that's not what we say about people" is shaming a kid. ESPECIALLY, when all along I, and other posters, have said it is part of an ongoing dialogue and education. That just seems very off to me. I tell my kids all sorts of stuff that we do not do, and teach them what and how to do the right thing. There is no shame involved. Where in the world did the shame come in?

Lady. This argument apparently about parenting/discipline styles for preschoolers, not racism. Many of us believe that shame is not an effective parenting tool for preschoolers. Feel free to believe differently, but don't tack that up to the rest of us being racist or whatever.

OOMG!!! I never said anything about shaming -- it is not shaming to tell someone not to refer to people in a certain way! You can correct without shaming... what are you talking about?? Seriously!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:11, on 4, if the kid learns he can't say those things to you, the parent, but he keeps thinking them, then we have a serious problem. If she can't have an ongoing dialogue with him about these ideas she won't be able to ensure he's gotten to the truth of equality. That's why a number of us are counseling against being so emphatic that you shame the kid into silence with his mother, who is the only person to whom he seems to have made these remarks.

HUH? I don't get the idea of telling someone "that's not how we talk about people", "that's not what we say about people" is shaming a kid. ESPECIALLY, when all along I, and other posters, have said it is part of an ongoing dialogue and education. That just seems very off to me. I tell my kids all sorts of stuff that we do not do, and teach them what and how to do the right thing. There is no shame involved. Where in the world did the shame come in?

Lady. This argument apparently about parenting/discipline styles for preschoolers, not racism. Many of us believe that shame is not an effective parenting tool for preschoolers. Feel free to believe differently, but don't tack that up to the rest of us being racist or whatever.

OOMG!!! I never said anything about shaming -- it is not shaming to tell someone not to refer to people in a certain way! You can correct without shaming... what are you talking about?? Seriously!

see above

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the poster to whom you are referring. I think you misunderstood me. Maybe you did not read all of the previous posts, because I was responding to posters who said that it was wrong to be emphatic. I did not say anything about white parents are not being emphatic. I was saying that there is nothing wrong with being emphatic and did not understand why others labeled this as the wrong approach. Just wanted to clear that up for ya.

thanks for responding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The all caps and VERY CLEAR RIGHT AWAY comment clearly gave many of is the impression of someone swooping in on their child with the kind of severe reaction that gets a kid's attention and lets the kid know they have done something very wrong. In addition, the fact that the other discussion we've suggested strike you as insufficient shows they you want the parent to be really emphatic. This is a 3.5 year old. Plenty of kids will do what it takes to avoid that kind of strong reaction from mom again, which means not saying anything racist to mom but doesn't mean not thinking it or saying it elsewhere.

Ok -- let me be clear, I do not believe that emphatic suggests yelling, shaming, screaming, or being mean.
By, emphatic I mean very clear, very straightforward, and that this is a very important topic.
To me, the subject of how we talk about and think about people is just as important as safety issues, does anyone think being emphatic about safety issues is wrong?
I was emphatic with my child about this issue, and we have an open dialogue. It started when DC was a preschooler.
I truly do not understand your line of thinking -- it really baffles my mind.

You are emphatic about not running into the street because what you care about is action. With racism we care about thought, not just deeds. You can't force a person to have a particular thought. You have to teach it, show them, make sure they come back to you with doubts and fears.

Everything you said about running in the street applies to race. And I hate to break it to you, but racism is not just thoughts, it's also actions. Just like I teach that we don't play with fire and later talk about fire hurting and consequences of actions, same thing applies to race. Makes no sense to think that telling a kid not to identify people by race is going to prevent them from feeling comfortable talking to you about thoughts and fears, etc. related to race. it is an ongoing education and conversation....why is that hard to understand.

I'm going to try this one more time and then stop.
1) I clearly state that what we care about is thoughts and deeds. You don't have to break anything to me. I stand by my position that if you effectively deal with the thoughts, good actions will follow, whereas if you squelch the words but not the thoughts, you have a problem that is now harder to fix.

2) Thus, my obvious concern is that if you come down too strongly on a young child you effectively stop the words but not the thoughts. Surely you aren't taking the position that it is impossible to scare a kid into silence or outward submission by coming on too strong. Racism is a terrible dreadful thing that cuts at the center of humanity. If I tell my child anything like that, even in childish language, the first time she or he at 3yo says something that is racist, I have clearly told the child they have done something terrible. But the message we want to convey is not "you're terrible" but "that statement is untrue, let me show you how you already know it to be untrue." And beyond that, "let me continue to discuss with you how it is untrue by making this a topic you the child feel comfortable raising with me." We can disagree about how to get that across but unless you are saying children don't ever stop engaging on topic in response to a strong parental reaction, we have to agree that this is a possibility and one to be avoided. I'll say again, avoided not to protect the feelings of the 3yo over other kids, but to get to our goal, which is to extinguish racist thoughts, words, and actions.

I don't get you. Who said anything about scaring a child into submission? I did not say that. Just like I tell my kids the proper names for their body parts, I tell them the correct and considerate way to refer to people. How is that scary? I never said anything about scaring anyone.
As for dealing with the thoughts. One of the ways you deal with that is by calling out bad actions. Hey, that is not how we refer to people. We refer to them this way. Language is everything. And if we do not teach our kid the proper/considerate/sensitive way to use language than what is the point? And I have said time and again, that it is an ongoing discussion. But you keep skipping over that point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would address it matter of factly and in terms he can understand. I would NOT shame him as he is too little to recognize what he is saying. I WOULD ask him where he got the idea. Kids do come up with crazy, inappropriate things on their own but that is very specific and he probably either heard or misunderstood something.

+1 to all of this. 9 times out of 10 when my child has said something like this it came from someone at school. These times serve as an opportunity to say "some people think X, but we do not, and it is wrong to judge people based on where they live, what they look like, their abilities, their religion, etc." We make it very clear that we will not abide such judgmental talk or discriminatory behavior in our house. You have to lead by example and you can do that by being matter of fact, not by shaming. You want your child to talk to you so you can share your values - not shut them down with shame or punishment.

OH MY GOOODNESS PEOPLE WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SHAMING THEIR KIDS -- WHO - WHO SAID IT PLEASE -- WHO SAID IT??

Um, this poster said it?

"Wrong, wrong and wrong. Shame is a valuable emotion and this is something I would absolutely risk shaming them for. This is hate speech and needs to stop NOW. It is NOT normal to form a like or dislike to the color of a person's skin!!! I was a preschool teacher for ten years before I became a mother and I have NEVER heard this as a normal stage of development either in work or when I was getting my degree."

ok that was not me -- argue with her about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:11, on 4, if the kid learns he can't say those things to you, the parent, but he keeps thinking them, then we have a serious problem. If she can't have an ongoing dialogue with him about these ideas she won't be able to ensure he's gotten to the truth of equality. That's why a number of us are counseling against being so emphatic that you shame the kid into silence with his mother, who is the only person to whom he seems to have made these remarks.

HUH? I don't get the idea of telling someone "that's not how we talk about people", "that's not what we say about people" is shaming a kid. ESPECIALLY, when all along I, and other posters, have said it is part of an ongoing dialogue and education. That just seems very off to me. I tell my kids all sorts of stuff that we do not do, and teach them what and how to do the right thing. There is no shame involved. Where in the world did the shame come in?

Lady. This argument apparently about parenting/discipline styles for preschoolers, not racism. Many of us believe that shame is not an effective parenting tool for preschoolers. Feel free to believe differently, but don't tack that up to the rest of us being racist or whatever.

You realize that you are responding to a post that clearly states that shame is not involved. So why say that shame is not an effective tool. That is what the post said -- NO SHAME.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the poster to whom you are referring. I think you misunderstood me. Maybe you did not read all of the previous posts, because I was responding to posters who said that it was wrong to be emphatic. I did not say anything about white parents are not being emphatic. I was saying that there is nothing wrong with being emphatic and did not understand why others labeled this as the wrong approach. Just wanted to clear that up for ya.

thanks for responding.

No problem, I just wanted to be clear about my point. Other poster keeps arguing with me that being emphatic is shaming and traumatic and does not allow the kid to learn. I beg to differ. Maybe I have a different definition of emphatic