New York Top Schools - Top marks largely go to Asians. Bill de Blasio wants to change the exams

[Anonymous]

Taking school seriously doesn't mean you have to sign up your DC to tutors and/or test preps. It means providing family support so your DC can excel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rather than spending time/effort explaining why blacks and Latino kids can't score high, why not teach them to take school seriously? It's pathetic how hard people try to underscore Asian kids' accomplishments.

You just spent time/effort explaining it yourself. Your explanation is that they don't take school seriously. I wonder how you know that.

You can't be serious.

Yes, I'm serious. Please explain how you know that the reason that test scores for black/Latino kids tend to be lower is that black/Latino kids don't take school seriously.

Not the PP but all you have to do is go to Kumon, MathWorks, or any of the after school supplemental study programs and look around. An extra hour or 2 a day of studying is a good enough indicator of "serious" for me....

I don't send my kids to Kumon, Mathworks, etc. However, my kid is required to do IXL every night, but one. Is that serious enough for you, or does one have to pay enormous amounts of money to take education serious

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rather than spending time/effort explaining why blacks and Latino kids can't score high, why not teach them to take school seriously? It's pathetic how hard people try to underscore Asian kids' accomplishments.

You just spent time/effort explaining it yourself. Your explanation is that they don't take school seriously. I wonder how you know that.

You can't be serious.

Yes, I'm serious. Please explain how you know that the reason that test scores for black/Latino kids tend to be lower is that black/Latino kids don't take school seriously.

Not the PP but all you have to do is go to Kumon, MathWorks, or any of the after school supplemental study programs and look around. An extra hour or 2 a day of studying is a good enough indicator of "serious" for me....

High suicide rates among these kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Same can be applied to SATs, yet, most colleges use these scores as part of admissions. And a lot of kids of all ethnicities take SAT prep tests and/or tutor classes. If standardized tests only reflect rote learning or the ability to be good at taking exams, then colleges should stop using SAT/ACTs scores as part of the admissions process. But, I bet your kid has or will probably prep for the SATs when the time comes. When the time comes, I know I will encourage my DCs to prep for the SATs.

I do agree, though, that some people are better at taking exams than others, and it is not necessarily an accurate reflection of how "smart" they are.

Yes, they should. And many colleges actually have stopped.

In addition, no college admits applicants solely on the basis of SAT/ACT scores. Big state universities tend to looks mostly at test scores and GPAs, but the highest ranking schools also require essays and teacher recommendations. The top colleges and universities want students who bring more to the table than just high test scores. They want kids who are academic high achievers who also will participate in and contribute to the community.
I

Read the book Chosen and you will see how elite schools begin to use things other than academics for admission. Not completely innocent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There are plenty of smart kids in all races and ethnicities. An exam (not just this exam -- any exam) is an imperfect means of identifying them.

maybe, maybe not... how do you explain the fact Asian/White kids score consistently higher on any and all tests? just a coincidence? i think not.

Because exams are imperfect means of identifying smart kids of all races and ethnicities.

Unless you're suggesting that there is something inherently smarter about white and Asian kids than black and Latino kids? I certainly hope that you're not suggesting that. Not only would it be racist, it would be profoundly ignorant of biology.

I think by lowering standards of an academic test to gain entrance into an academic institution for academic purposes is implying that some races are not academically smart.

Yes, there are all kinds of smart kids - some are good in music, dance, sports, spatial reasoning...and so there are competitions that measure these specific kind of intelligence too.

Since exams are such an imperfect way - we should eliminate all exams. Harvard can institute some kind of "Hunger Games" kind of scenario and the survivor gets admitted to it.

No, it is saying that academic tests are a measure of prerequisite knowledge. It is a mistake to consider standardized tests, measures of intelligence. It's a measure of current levels of memorization of standardized knowledge such as spelling, definitions, synonyms/antonyms, basic mathematics, etc. It is more accurate to say that only kids that have a certain number of prerequisite knowledge are admitted and that the standardized test is a measure of their prerequisite knowledge. This then highlights why those who are more prepared or spend more time prepping do better. Standardized tests are not IQ tests.

And offering test prep courses to any lower income students who qualify is the way to off-set this. They can then have the advantage of test prep classes that they might otherwise not be able to afford. And you can offer this without lowering the standards or the acceptance rates even for smaller demographics. You direct those groups who are underrepresented to take the courses offered.

Again, the article indicated that many of these Asian kids qualify for FARMS, so if they are also taking prep classes, then there is nothing else to off-set. As someone stated, you can bring a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink it.

Are the entrance tests standardized tests or IQ based tests? If IQ based ones, then I don't think test preps will help *that* much more, maybe familiarity with such tests, but taking a sample test can't really make you gain more IQ points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There are plenty of smart kids in all races and ethnicities. An exam (not just this exam -- any exam) is an imperfect means of identifying them.

maybe, maybe not... how do you explain the fact Asian/White kids score consistently higher on any and all tests? just a coincidence? i think not.

Because exams are imperfect means of identifying smart kids of all races and ethnicities.

Unless you're suggesting that there is something inherently smarter about white and Asian kids than black and Latino kids? I certainly hope that you're not suggesting that. Not only would it be racist, it would be profoundly ignorant of biology.

I think by lowering standards of an academic test to gain entrance into an academic institution for academic purposes is implying that some races are not academically smart.

Yes, there are all kinds of smart kids - some are good in music, dance, sports, spatial reasoning...and so there are competitions that measure these specific kind of intelligence too.

Since exams are such an imperfect way - we should eliminate all exams. Harvard can institute some kind of "Hunger Games" kind of scenario and the survivor gets admitted to it.

No, it is saying that academic tests are a measure of prerequisite knowledge. It is a mistake to consider standardized tests, measures of intelligence. It's a measure of current levels of memorization of standardized knowledge such as spelling, definitions, synonyms/antonyms, basic mathematics, etc. It is more accurate to say that only kids that have a certain number of prerequisite knowledge are admitted and that the standardized test is a measure of their prerequisite knowledge. This then highlights why those who are more prepared or spend more time prepping do better. Standardized tests are not IQ tests.

And offering test prep courses to any lower income students who qualify is the way to off-set this. They can then have the advantage of test prep classes that they might otherwise not be able to afford. And you can offer this without lowering the standards or the acceptance rates even for smaller demographics. You direct those groups who are underrepresented to take the courses offered.

Never heard of or seen anyone tale standardized testing prep courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Never heard of or seen anyone tale standardized testing prep courses.

Really? SAT, ACT and other standardized tests have tons of prep courses, prep materials, etc out there. It's a huge money making industry out there. There are many, many families that invest in various ways to prep their kids for these things. Just google and you'll see a ton of resources. My kids are only preschoolers, but I've heard of these things for decades since I was in college. Kaplan courses have been around since at least the 1980's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rather than spending time/effort explaining why blacks and Latino kids can't score high, why not teach them to take school seriously? It's pathetic how hard people try to underscore Asian kids' accomplishments.

You just spent time/effort explaining it yourself. Your explanation is that they don't take school seriously. I wonder how you know that.

You can't be serious.

Yes, I'm serious. Please explain how you know that the reason that test scores for black/Latino kids tend to be lower is that black/Latino kids don't take school seriously.

Not the PP but all you have to do is go to Kumon, MathWorks, or any of the after school supplemental study programs and look around. An extra hour or 2 a day of studying is a good enough indicator of "serious" for me....

I don't send my kids to Kumon, Mathworks, etc. However, my kid is required to do IXL every night, but one. Is that serious enough for you, or does one have to pay enormous amounts of money to take education serious

I am replying to you by using something another poster posted below -

Anonymous wrote:

Taking school seriously doesn't mean you have to sign up your DC to tutors and/or test preps. It means providing family support so your DC can excel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Same can be applied to SATs, yet, most colleges use these scores as part of admissions. And a lot of kids of all ethnicities take SAT prep tests and/or tutor classes. If standardized tests only reflect rote learning or the ability to be good at taking exams, then colleges should stop using SAT/ACTs scores as part of the admissions process. But, I bet your kid has or will probably prep for the SATs when the time comes. When the time comes, I know I will encourage my DCs to prep for the SATs.

I do agree, though, that some people are better at taking exams than others, and it is not necessarily an accurate reflection of how "smart" they are.

Yes, they should. And many colleges actually have stopped.

In addition, no college admits applicants solely on the basis of SAT/ACT scores. Big state universities tend to looks mostly at test scores and GPAs, but the highest ranking schools also require essays and teacher recommendations. The top colleges and universities want students who bring more to the table than just high test scores. They want kids who are academic high achievers who also will participate in and contribute to the community.
I

Read the book Chosen and you will see how elite schools begin to use things other than academics for admission. Not completely innocent.

Yes, I have read that but that happened a long time ago. A lot of things that went on back then don't happen anymore. Could a similar situation happen today? Anything is possible, but it is highly unlikely today.

Lots of people can get good grades and high test scores by studying night and day, no matter what their race or nationality. Earning high GPAs and high test scores while also being highly involved in sports, arts, music, or volunteer work is much more difficult. The second group is smaller than the first and much more interesting to top schools. Top schools don't want students who are there only to take, they want those who also want to give back.

[Anonymous]

An interesting study mentions 3 factors why Asians do well in school -

1) Parental involvement
2) More hours studying
3) Study habits

https://asa.maricopa.edu/sites/default/files/An_Analysis_of_the_Factors.pdf

[Anonymous]

We are not talking about universities, folks. We are talking about a public HS. I wonder if de Blasio's kid had tutors, did prep tests.

Also, in the article "Moreover, looser entry criteria may merely boost white pupils. Sean Corcoran of New York University has found that offers based on state test scores, grades and attendance would increase the share of Hispanic and white students in the specialised high schools, and reduce Asians, but would not increase the proportion of blacks. Inequalities in achievement, he writes, are “baked in long before high school”. " -

Looking at attendance is like giving every kid a trophy for just showing up. This would hurt a kid's chances who gets sick often, or who got the measles one year.

And that last line is absolutely correct. If the de Blasio wants to level the playing field, then that's what he needs to look at - inequalities prior to HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: An interesting study mentions 3 factors why Asians do well in school -

1) Parental involvement
2) More hours studying
3) Study habits

https://asa.maricopa.edu/sites/default/files/An_Analysis_of_the_Factors.pdf

Thank you. Finally some reality to this discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: An interesting study mentions 3 factors why Asians do well in school -

1) Parental involvement
2) More hours studying
3) Study habits

https://asa.maricopa.edu/sites/default/files/An_Analysis_of_the_Factors.pdf

This is not an interesting study. It's a research paper like I might have written in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I can understand if colleges use AA as part of the admissions because not all HS around the country are the same. A kid who went to a crap HS didn't have the chance to be challenged and take AP courses. But, in this case, all of those kids in Stuy are coming from the same pool of HS. They all have the same equal opportunity to learn the same things, take the same classes. Makes no sense to apply AA in such a case.

Everybody in NYC public schools has an equal educational opportunity to everybody else? What a paradise NYC public schools must be.

If not then Big Bird is focused on the wrong thing...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: An interesting study mentions 3 factors why Asians do well in school -

1) Parental involvement
2) More hours studying
3) Study habits

https://asa.maricopa.edu/sites/default/files/An_Analysis_of_the_Factors.pdf

This is not an interesting study. It's a research paper like I might have written in high school.

But you didn't...