Dartmouth finally publishes their SAT data in the Common Data Set after dropping TO; white enrollment surges

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the other end of the spectrum, Hopkins saw 50% of their class of 2029 made up of Asian Americans. What gives?

At a guess, high-scoring white kids tend to pick Dartmouth over Hopkins, while high-scoring Asian kids tend to pick Hopkins over Dartmouth.

Also, Dartmouth really focuses on taking kids from the top 10% of their high school class. That might hurt Asian kids, because they tend to be clustered in a small number of high-performing high schools.

Hopkins is famous in taking top 10% of the class. This doesn’t make any sense!

If anything, Hopkins takes a higher percentage of the class that is Top 10% than Dartmouth.

Jhu are 100% top 10% of class, not even MIT.

Most schools do not report so how would you know this?......You wouldn't.

Please check https://www.collegetransitions.com/.

College transitions is somehow reporting top 10% scores which the schools themselves do not report? If a HS doesn't mark class rank you have no idea where a kid graduated in their class unless there is another indicator like ELC in CA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something racist is going on. Where are the Asian students?

Historically, Dartmouth has much lower Asian student enrollment than its peers, 20% in last few years are highest in its history.
There are many reasons, location, more LAC like. But, Dartmouth is a bit more conservative than its peers, it's the only Ivies not signing against Trump's policy against colleges last year.

AA ban is good for Asian students, we can see it happens in those STEM focused top schools, but is better for White students, after all, Asian is only 6% of population, and they tend to focus on T20, also, most competitive Asian students are Indian and Chinese, they already are 70% of Asian population in Ivies. But there are many other great schools, for T20-50 school, picture is different.

Asian students can't write good essays explaining why they want to be in a rural/desolate environment or have the right ECs to convince an AO of that (farm; skiing; rural EMT; riflery; mushroom foraging; beekeeping/goat herding; equestrian). It's self-selecting.

Are you joking?

I think it's true too.
- south Asian parent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dartmouth has always leaned conservative, white frat type. Partly due to location.

I think this is correct. I also think less Asians apply to Dartmouth - but not that much less that the percentage would go down. There is still bias (conscious or not) for white applicants (and against Asian applicants). Dartmouth probably doesn't want the Asian population to grow exponentially as it did on other campuses. There are definitely markers on the application that point to the applicant's race and background.

Dartmouth doesn't have engineering, which limits its appeal for many students, including many Asians. You generally don't see many Asians interested in SLACs in the middle of nowhere, which is essentially what Dartmouth is.

False.

Saying Dartmouth does not have engineering is like saying Brown does not have engineering. The two schools are similar in that respect, yet Brown is now close to 40% Asian.

Dartmouth should still be attractive to many Asian applicants, especially premed students, and also students interested in economics, government, and the humanities. Georgetown does not have engineering at all, and it is close to 30% Asian.

As a PP pointed out, some SLACs have a higher percentage of Asian students than Dartmouth. Carleton and Wellesley are good examples.

So I do not buy the “no engineering” explanation. The numbers look much more like the result of active discrimination, and the surge in white enrollment only reinforces that impression.

Dartmouth has an AB in “engineering science” that us possible in 4 yrs. For the BE, which is the only ABET accredited degree, it takes a 5th year at Dartmouth.
Engineering at Brown may be weak but at least a 4 yr BS in engineering is possible at Brown.

The 5th yr to get a real engineering degree is a major turnoff and yes it disproportionally affects asian applicants

All DC's friends are getting their engineering BS in 4. Oh, and they are also involved in fraternities, and by the way, the greek average GPA is higher than the schoolwide GPA

That greek GPA point is true at most selective schools (look at Cornell, Penn, Northwestern, Vanderbilt)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something racist is going on. Where are the Asian students?

Historically, Dartmouth has much lower Asian student enrollment than its peers, 20% in last few years are highest in its history.
There are many reasons, location, more LAC like. But, Dartmouth is a bit more conservative than its peers, it's the only Ivies not signing against Trump's policy against colleges last year.

AA ban is good for Asian students, we can see it happens in those STEM focused top schools, but is better for White students, after all, Asian is only 6% of population, and they tend to focus on T20, also, most competitive Asian students are Indian and Chinese, they already are 70% of Asian population in Ivies. But there are many other great schools, for T20-50 school, picture is different.

Asian students can't write good essays explaining why they want to be in a rural/desolate environment or have the right ECs to convince an AO of that (farm; skiing; rural EMT; riflery; mushroom foraging; beekeeping/goat herding; equestrian). It's self-selecting.

Ding ding ding.
It's fit.
Shotgunning doesn't work at Dartmouth. Plus, the class is sooo tiny.

Fit is universal excuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the other end of the spectrum, Hopkins saw 50% of their class of 2029 made up of Asian Americans. What gives?

At a guess, high-scoring white kids tend to pick Dartmouth over Hopkins, while high-scoring Asian kids tend to pick Hopkins over Dartmouth.

Also, Dartmouth really focuses on taking kids from the top 10% of their high school class. That might hurt Asian kids, because they tend to be clustered in a small number of high-performing high schools.

Hopkins is famous in taking top 10% of the class. This doesn’t make any sense!

If anything, Hopkins takes a higher percentage of the class that is Top 10% than Dartmouth.

Jhu are 100% top 10% of class, not even MIT.

Most schools do not report so how would you know this?......You wouldn't.

Please check https://www.collegetransitions.com/.

College transitions is somehow reporting top 10% scores which the schools themselves do not report? If a HS doesn't mark class rank you have no idea where a kid graduated in their class unless there is another indicator like ELC in CA.

You can reach out to them for their methodology, some colleges don't report data to U.S News, still get ranked anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something racist is going on. Where are the Asian students?

Historically, Dartmouth has much lower Asian student enrollment than its peers, 20% in last few years are highest in its history.
There are many reasons, location, more LAC like. But, Dartmouth is a bit more conservative than its peers, it's the only Ivies not signing against Trump's policy against colleges last year.

AA ban is good for Asian students, we can see it happens in those STEM focused top schools, but is better for White students, after all, Asian is only 6% of population, and they tend to focus on T20, also, most competitive Asian students are Indian and Chinese, they already are 70% of Asian population in Ivies. But there are many other great schools, for T20-50 school, picture is different.

Asian students can't write good essays explaining why they want to be in a rural/desolate environment or have the right ECs to convince an AO of that (farm; skiing; rural EMT; riflery; mushroom foraging; beekeeping/goat herding; equestrian). It's self-selecting.

Seems urban rich white kids can do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the other end of the spectrum, Hopkins saw 50% of their class of 2029 made up of Asian Americans. What gives?

At a guess, high-scoring white kids tend to pick Dartmouth over Hopkins, while high-scoring Asian kids tend to pick Hopkins over Dartmouth.

Also, Dartmouth really focuses on taking kids from the top 10% of their high school class. That might hurt Asian kids, because they tend to be clustered in a small number of high-performing high schools.

If someone knows this off the top of their head - is this data for applicants or enrolled students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dartmouth has always leaned conservative, white frat type. Partly due to location.

I think this is correct. I also think less Asians apply to Dartmouth - but not that much less that the percentage would go down. There is still bias (conscious or not) for white applicants (and against Asian applicants). Dartmouth probably doesn't want the Asian population to grow exponentially as it did on other campuses. There are definitely markers on the application that point to the applicant's race and background.

Dartmouth doesn't have engineering, which limits its appeal for many students, including many Asians. You generally don't see many Asians interested in SLACs in the middle of nowhere, which is essentially what Dartmouth is.

False.

Saying Dartmouth does not have engineering is like saying Brown does not have engineering. The two schools are similar in that respect, yet Brown is now close to 40% Asian.

Dartmouth should still be attractive to many Asian applicants, especially premed students, and also students interested in economics, government, and the humanities. Georgetown does not have engineering at all, and it is close to 30% Asian.

As a PP pointed out, some SLACs have a higher percentage of Asian students than Dartmouth. Carleton and Wellesley are good examples.

So I do not buy the “no engineering” explanation. The numbers look much more like the result of active discrimination, and the surge in white enrollment only reinforces that impression.

Dartmouth has an AB in “engineering science” that us possible in 4 yrs. For the BE, which is the only ABET accredited degree, it takes a 5th year at Dartmouth.
Engineering at Brown may be weak but at least a 4 yr BS in engineering is possible at Brown.

The 5th yr to get a real engineering degree is a major turnoff and yes it disproportionally affects asian applicants

All DC's friends are getting their engineering BS in 4. Oh, and they are also involved in fraternities, and by the way, the greek average GPA is higher than the schoolwide GPA

That greek GPA point is true at most selective schools (look at Cornell, Penn, Northwestern, Vanderbilt)

Is that b/c they have file cabinets full of old tests & distribute them to fellow fraternity members to prepare?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the other end of the spectrum, Hopkins saw 50% of their class of 2029 made up of Asian Americans. What gives?

At a guess, high-scoring white kids tend to pick Dartmouth over Hopkins, while high-scoring Asian kids tend to pick Hopkins over Dartmouth.

Also, Dartmouth really focuses on taking kids from the top 10% of their high school class. That might hurt Asian kids, because they tend to be clustered in a small number of high-performing high schools.

At Hopkins now. Seems right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dartmouth has always leaned conservative, white frat type. Partly due to location.

I think this is correct. I also think less Asians apply to Dartmouth - but not that much less that the percentage would go down. There is still bias (conscious or not) for white applicants (and against Asian applicants). Dartmouth probably doesn't want the Asian population to grow exponentially as it did on other campuses. There are definitely markers on the application that point to the applicant's race and background.

Dartmouth doesn't have engineering, which limits its appeal for many students, including many Asians. You generally don't see many Asians interested in SLACs in the middle of nowhere, which is essentially what Dartmouth is.

False.

Saying Dartmouth does not have engineering is like saying Brown does not have engineering. The two schools are similar in that respect, yet Brown is now close to 40% Asian.

Dartmouth should still be attractive to many Asian applicants, especially premed students, and also students interested in economics, government, and the humanities. Georgetown does not have engineering at all, and it is close to 30% Asian.

As a PP pointed out, some SLACs have a higher percentage of Asian students than Dartmouth. Carleton and Wellesley are good examples.

So I do not buy the “no engineering” explanation. The numbers look much more like the result of active discrimination, and the surge in white enrollment only reinforces that impression.

Dartmouth has an AB in “engineering science” that us possible in 4 yrs. For the BE, which is the only ABET accredited degree, it takes a 5th year at Dartmouth.
Engineering at Brown may be weak but at least a 4 yr BS in engineering is possible at Brown.

The 5th yr to get a real engineering degree is a major turnoff and yes it disproportionally affects asian applicants

All DC's friends are getting their engineering BS in 4. Oh, and they are also involved in fraternities, and by the way, the greek average GPA is higher than the schoolwide GPA

That greek GPA point is true at most selective schools (look at Cornell, Penn, Northwestern, Vanderbilt)

Is that b/c they have file cabinets full of old tests & distribute them to fellow fraternity members to prepare?

That’s called cheating.

[Anonymous]

Dartmouth is just an extension of Exeter or Hotchkiss culture. Same crowd, same bubble, same nepos connects.

Toss in a few quest bridges and rural middle class kids for some countering flavor and you've got the incoming class any given year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dartmouth has always leaned conservative, white frat type. Partly due to location.

I think this is correct. I also think less Asians apply to Dartmouth - but not that much less that the percentage would go down. There is still bias (conscious or not) for white applicants (and against Asian applicants). Dartmouth probably doesn't want the Asian population to grow exponentially as it did on other campuses. There are definitely markers on the application that point to the applicant's race and background.

Dartmouth doesn't have engineering, which limits its appeal for many students, including many Asians. You generally don't see many Asians interested in SLACs in the middle of nowhere, which is essentially what Dartmouth is.

False.

Saying Dartmouth does not have engineering is like saying Brown does not have engineering. The two schools are similar in that respect, yet Brown is now close to 40% Asian.

Dartmouth should still be attractive to many Asian applicants, especially premed students, and also students interested in economics, government, and the humanities. Georgetown does not have engineering at all, and it is close to 30% Asian.

As a PP pointed out, some SLACs have a higher percentage of Asian students than Dartmouth. Carleton and Wellesley are good examples.

So I do not buy the “no engineering” explanation. The numbers look much more like the result of active discrimination, and the surge in white enrollment only reinforces that impression.

Dartmouth has an AB in “engineering science” that us possible in 4 yrs. For the BE, which is the only ABET accredited degree, it takes a 5th year at Dartmouth.
Engineering at Brown may be weak but at least a 4 yr BS in engineering is possible at Brown.

The 5th yr to get a real engineering degree is a major turnoff and yes it disproportionally affects asian applicants

All DC's friends are getting their engineering BS in 4. Oh, and they are also involved in fraternities, and by the way, the greek average GPA is higher than the schoolwide GPA

That greek GPA point is true at most selective schools (look at Cornell, Penn, Northwestern, Vanderbilt)

Is that b/c they have file cabinets full of old tests & distribute them to fellow fraternity members to prepare?

You watch too much TV. No one has "files" - they do have study groups and advise younger members on which classes/teachers to take for easier grading. Better peer mentorship, perhaps? Also, peer pressure on grades.
At least what I've seen.

[Anonymous]

I went to top engineering school - agree that students in fraternities have access to older member’s problem sets and exams and papers kept on file. Friend’s som going to Cornell for engineering - he met with friends who are upperclassmen there and they told him to join a frat and this was one reason why - access to old exams etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a Dartmouth freshman. Disclaimer: they're our oldest child so I don't have experience with another current day college and I didn't attend an Ivy or similar school myself.

Admission trends there are hard to pin down. Since our kid enrolled we've heard from half dozen legacy families in our larger circle of friends/coworkers/etc whose kids were rejected for the classes of 2029 and 2030. The perhaps most noteworthy is a friend's child whose parents both attended (and met there), are reasonably active alums, sibling attends, had great grades/scores/etc and yet was ultimately rejected. Got into Hopkins, Duke and Princeton (!) unhooked and attends one of these. This stands out as the most wild of the legacy rejections I personally now know but I could share almost a half dozen more that are almost as noteworthy.

The student body is a real mixed group. You have the children of actual billionaires (at maybe the highest concentration anywhere) and many of multi millionaires. They tend to have graduated at or near the very top of prep or boarding school classes. Bright and well trained. Many of this group are Dartmouth legacies.

Then you have the upper middle or professional class kids who are very smart and typical of what one thinks of as high achieving, Ivy level kids. Decent number of Asians in this group. My own child is in here.

Then you have a lot of kids who frankly aren't very remarkable. Most bring rural/geographic diversity and economic diversity. Many struggle. Since we're talking SAT scores, this group often had SAT scores in the 1400s, even 1300s (my kids knows or knew because apparently at some point in early freshman year this comes out in chatter). Dartmouth currently seems to love admitting this demographic (there are many of them) and views admitting them as being a large part of their current mission. I don't know if this is similar at other Ivies or other top 20s as I don't have another kid in college.

Which brings up the question of what the point of an Ivy is. Is it to educate the best and brightest, regardless of prior opportunity? Or is it to give a top opportunity to kids who will benefit most from it? Dartmouth appears to believe very strongly in the second. However, it's meant that kids like mine (a pretty typical DMV high-achiever) are skating through college and not really being challenged. To be frank, my child has a 4.0 and hasn't worked very hard. They will tell you that their high school cohort was by-in-large brighter than many classmates at college. In this regard it's been disappointing. I'm not sure what the rest of the years will hold. I'd be interested in hearing what other Dartmouth parents think.

NP This is happening at other Ivies too. I posted last week that an Ivy professor friend of ours talked about so many kids being unprepared. I didn't feel like being controversial at the time so didn't add the important missing insight our friend shared: it was mostly FGLI who came in shockingly unprepared. Not all of them, but many. Many can't write and will take years to get them up to university-level writing. Friend said a lot of the athletes are actually great students because so many come from good prep schools and have parents who are college educated. They also say it's self-selecting – the athletes who come from struggling schools, who only want to play ball self select to go to colleges in southern states, whereas the ones who are more prepared academically choose to come to Ivies or at least UT Austin even if they too could have been recruited by Ole Miss because they want to have career options beyond the NFL. Friend said this is happening across Ivies, professor friends from other Ivies are complaining about the same things and university leaderships know.

BUT...

Friend also said the reason is more complex than 26-year-old admissions officers trying to be woke. They know AI is coming, and soon the window could close forever to lift up those in the bottom with no access to any tool or means of upward mobility. This is why there is so much focus on applicants in rural areas now. They are the ones most at risk because if they can't get a full ride from an Ivy (all expenses paid, flights to go home for Christmas or even money for groceries in the summer), these kids can't even go to the nearest state schools in their own states. Some can't even go to community college (many may start but they can't stay) because they can't afford the transportation, a $5K tuition or annual expense. They need to join the work force if they don't attend a very wealthy Ivy that would feed them.

My family is UMC/UC. Our DCs are top 5-10% at feeder privates outside DMV with SAT at top 0.5% and great ECs. They don't have tutors and work their asses off. Am I disappointed that they likely won't get into HYP? Maybe a little. But when I heard what my friend said, it makes sense and I know why ivies are doing this. So rural FGLI who score 1400 will go to HYP and my kids hopefully will go to Rice or Tufts. I am more than ok with that.

[Anonymous]

Well known cheating culture at Dartmouth, traditionally linked to greek houses.