Dartmouth finally publishes their SAT data in the Common Data Set after dropping TO; white enrollment surges

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

Please. It’s also knowing about those resources, having the equipment to utilize them, the time to do so (hard when you’re working 20+ hrs/wk, as many of these kids are), and a safe and stable location in which to study.

Plenty of kids don’t have those things, and those that persevere through those challenges make privileged kids look pretty pathetic by comparison.

You've built a mythical coal miner's daughter in your mind that goes to school with a piece of paper and pencil tucked into their waistband. There might be a tiny handful of kids like that in the country. They're not squeezing anyone out. I doubt there are 20 kids like that in any entering class. The question is how prepared is the school to hold their hand and help bring them up to speed.

You live in a bubble. My 11th grader’s class (at a public magnet) has 5-6 exceptional kids that fit the description. And another 30-40 that are capable, but won’t even manage to take the test or go to a 4 year college.

Capable of what?

Excelling academically, scoring well on SAT, attending a competitive 4 year college.

You can do that at any number of schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

And if you're that farmer's daughter from Iowa you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your family by going to University of Iowa. You don't need to to fly across the country to a place you're never been with people so different than you. But, guess what, the farmer's daughter's kids will be primed to reach the next rung. This is the way it's historically been to just try to do better than one's own parents. When did we decide some need to be catapulted to the top over others who may be more deserving or capable?

Elite schools are wary of appearing to be closed off to all but multi-millionaire trust fund kids from Manhattan. That’s why they admit farmers’ daughters from Iowa, and it’s also why they admit suburban kids with high test scores. Those high-scoring suburban kids are several socio-economic rungs down from the Manhattan elite for whose benefit the schools really exist. They really don’t need to be catapulted into that rarified class, and would probably be better off attending the University of Maryland and becoming dentists or accountants like their dads.

The farmers daughter grad is much more likely to just go back to Iowa. I guess it was just a feel good move by the school rather than really about finding a diamond in the rough. A social experiment.

[Anonymous]

So Dartmouth is confirmed to be dumbest Ivy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So Dartmouth is confirmed to be dumbest Ivy?

It certainly would have been if it hadn't dropped TO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Black 4%
Hispanic 9.7%

So 17 fewer blacks is significant?

It’s marginal at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fall 2020 freshmen data sets, ivies:
(Best correlation to today as it was after the 2016 recentering)

25—50(est)--75

Harvard 1460-1520–1580
UPenn. 1460- 1515-1570
Yale. 1470- 1515-1560
Princeton. 1460- 1510–1560
Brown. 1440- 1495- 1550
Dartmouth 1430–1490—1550
Cornell. 1410–1475–1530

Columbia’s does not appear to be available. They had a long history of not publishing it.

Dartmouth ‘s new data set is stronger not weaker; Dartmouth likely remains bottom three in the Ivy League

our high school college counselor very helpfully told my kids that unhooked kids with no major national awards need to be right in btw that 50% and 75% number as a rule. which was helpful when they were doing SAT prep. And my kids were coming from known feeders. Get that SAT up in the 1530/1540 range

How about unhooked kids with good grades and 1570+? What are the chance this kid could get into at least one T15 if applying to all of them assuming ECs are decent and teachers' recs are amazing?

Very high chance. Statistically better than a 60% chance of admission to one T15.

Where is 60% chance coming from? LOL

Statistics. Distribution of 1570 scorers spread across Ivy, Ivy plus and top selective colleges. Hint: the top 50 contain the vast majority of these scorers. The top 15 contain more than 1/3rd. While colleges intentionally hide their admission rates by SAT, and the college board only gives out percentiles now, the data is the data.

It doesn't add up, 1/3rd of 1570+ to T15, that's 33%, but only 60% of all applicants submit SAT score, so it's only 20% of chance.

From Chatgpt, each year there are about average 10k scores 1570+, for T15, in best case, 2500 students are 1570+, worst case, is just 1200. So, it's 12%-25% chance in terms of SAT submitter, not overall chance.

Julius says there are 7,000-8,000 1570+, not 10,000. Basic extreme value theory.

20,000 known 1530 scorers (College Board published percentile data)
Unknown: 1570 or higher
Unknown: 1570 or higher superscorers

1570 scorers or higher will be at most half of 1530 scorers by even a basic IRT regression analysis.

Charitably, assume 9,000 1570 scorers. Then look how many of these scorers are at Ivy or Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Hopkins, Duke.

Then tell me again that a 1570 is going to get shut out of a T15.

1570s get shut out of T15 every year. It's about more than the score. Proceed at your own peril.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to top engineering school - agree that students in fraternities have access to older member’s problem sets and exams and papers kept on file. Friend’s som going to Cornell for engineering - he met with friends who are upperclassmen there and they told him to join a frat and this was one reason why - access to old exams etc.

There are no hard copies of exams "on file". Maybe there are other ways to get exam info?
- mother of Cornell student in a frat

yeah PP is from the 80s or 90s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

Baloney. Former poor, urban-public bright kid who scored 99th%ile on everything my whole life including my SAT.
I saved money and bough a prep book from the store, did a couple practices. I met many many similar students at my ivy and again at my T5 med school.
With Khan academy these days, motived yet poor bright kids can do just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fall 2020 freshmen data sets, ivies:
(Best correlation to today as it was after the 2016 recentering)

25—50(est)--75

Harvard 1460-1520–1580
UPenn. 1460- 1515-1570
Yale. 1470- 1515-1560
Princeton. 1460- 1510–1560
Brown. 1440- 1495- 1550
Dartmouth 1430–1490—1550
Cornell. 1410–1475–1530

Columbia’s does not appear to be available. They had a long history of not publishing it.

Dartmouth ‘s new data set is stronger not weaker; Dartmouth likely remains bottom three in the Ivy League

our high school college counselor very helpfully told my kids that unhooked kids with no major national awards need to be right in btw that 50% and 75% number as a rule. which was helpful when they were doing SAT prep. And my kids were coming from known feeders. Get that SAT up in the 1530/1540 range

How about unhooked kids with good grades and 1570+? What are the chance this kid could get into at least one T15 if applying to all of them assuming ECs are decent and teachers' recs are amazing?

Very high chance. Statistically better than a 60% chance of admission to one T15.

Where is 60% chance coming from? LOL

Statistics. Distribution of 1570 scorers spread across Ivy, Ivy plus and top selective colleges. Hint: the top 50 contain the vast majority of these scorers. The top 15 contain more than 1/3rd. While colleges intentionally hide their admission rates by SAT, and the college board only gives out percentiles now, the data is the data.

It doesn't add up, 1/3rd of 1570+ to T15, that's 33%, but only 60% of all applicants submit SAT score, so it's only 20% of chance.

From Chatgpt, each year there are about average 10k scores 1570+, for T15, in best case, 2500 students are 1570+, worst case, is just 1200. So, it's 12%-25% chance in terms of SAT submitter, not overall chance.

Julius says there are 7,000-8,000 1570+, not 10,000. Basic extreme value theory.

20,000 known 1530 scorers (College Board published percentile data)
Unknown: 1570 or higher
Unknown: 1570 or higher superscorers

1570 scorers or higher will be at most half of 1530 scorers by even a basic IRT regression analysis.

Charitably, assume 9,000 1570 scorers. Then look how many of these scorers are at Ivy or Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Hopkins, Duke.

Then tell me again that a 1570 is going to get shut out of a T15.

1570s get shut out of T15 every year. It's about more than the score. Proceed at your own peril.

This. 1570 that checks the other boxes--highest rigor, top GPA, not rude(good LOR) will get in to at least one T20 no problem. Many 1570s do not have the other stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

DP. My kid attends a public high school. 50% of the kids, including some high performing students, have to worry about whether they’ll have enough food to eat dinner.

Test workbooks? Not in a million years.

DP. I went to a rural Title 1 school where 80% of the kids got reduced cost lunches. No APs at all just a couple of PCs in a room. Now they they have Aps....total of 6 kids in the school take Calc AB, one to 2 for Chem, Bio, and English.

It's a different world (and not in a good way) but you just don't get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fall 2020 freshmen data sets, ivies:
(Best correlation to today as it was after the 2016 recentering)

25—50(est)--75

Harvard 1460-1520–1580
UPenn. 1460- 1515-1570
Yale. 1470- 1515-1560
Princeton. 1460- 1510–1560
Brown. 1440- 1495- 1550
Dartmouth 1430–1490—1550
Cornell. 1410–1475–1530

Columbia’s does not appear to be available. They had a long history of not publishing it.

Dartmouth ‘s new data set is stronger not weaker; Dartmouth likely remains bottom three in the Ivy League

our high school college counselor very helpfully told my kids that unhooked kids with no major national awards need to be right in btw that 50% and 75% number as a rule. which was helpful when they were doing SAT prep. And my kids were coming from known feeders. Get that SAT up in the 1530/1540 range

How about unhooked kids with good grades and 1570+? What are the chance this kid could get into at least one T15 if applying to all of them assuming ECs are decent and teachers' recs are amazing?

Very high chance. Statistically better than a 60% chance of admission to one T15.

Where is 60% chance coming from? LOL

Statistics. Distribution of 1570 scorers spread across Ivy, Ivy plus and top selective colleges. Hint: the top 50 contain the vast majority of these scorers. The top 15 contain more than 1/3rd. While colleges intentionally hide their admission rates by SAT, and the college board only gives out percentiles now, the data is the data.

It doesn't add up, 1/3rd of 1570+ to T15, that's 33%, but only 60% of all applicants submit SAT score, so it's only 20% of chance.

From Chatgpt, each year there are about average 10k scores 1570+, for T15, in best case, 2500 students are 1570+, worst case, is just 1200. So, it's 12%-25% chance in terms of SAT submitter, not overall chance.

Julius says there are 7,000-8,000 1570+, not 10,000. Basic extreme value theory.

20,000 known 1530 scorers (College Board published percentile data)
Unknown: 1570 or higher
Unknown: 1570 or higher superscorers

1570 scorers or higher will be at most half of 1530 scorers by even a basic IRT regression analysis.

Charitably, assume 9,000 1570 scorers. Then look how many of these scorers are at Ivy or Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Hopkins, Duke.

Then tell me again that a 1570 is going to get shut out of a T15.

1570s get shut out of T15 every year. It's about more than the score. Proceed at your own peril.

This. 1570 that checks the other boxes--highest rigor, top GPA, not rude(good LOR) will get in to at least one T20 no problem. Many 1570s do not have the other stuff.

False. More likely the 1570s have the other stuff better than a 1470. Why would they stop high achieving in other areas? Consistency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

No. I live in rural America with only two high schools and three Walmarts. Because I want a faculty job at a large state U. 1350 is not extraordinary. Neither is 1450. Each year the number of 1500+ scorers from the two high schools combined fluctuates around 30. Most of the kids are either Asians or children of faculty, but there are some from regular white families as well. You made it sound like rural America is dumb as a rock where 1350 is god-like. Many of these kids -- if they didn't take the full-ride at my school -- go on to Ivy+.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

DP. My kid attends a public high school. 50% of the kids, including some high performing students, have to worry about whether they’ll have enough food to eat dinner.

Test workbooks? Not in a million years.

DP. I went to a rural Title 1 school where 80% of the kids got reduced cost lunches. No APs at all just a couple of PCs in a room. Now they they have Aps....total of 6 kids in the school take Calc AB, one to 2 for Chem, Bio, and English.

It's a different world (and not in a good way) but you just don't get it.

In her fantasy, we’re still living in the Dickensian era, and the world is full of Oliver twists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

No. I live in rural America with only two high schools and three Walmarts. Because I want a faculty job at a large state U. 1350 is not extraordinary. Neither is 1450. Each year the number of 1500+ scorers from the two high schools combined fluctuates around 30. Most of the kids are either Asians or children of faculty, but there are some from regular white families as well. You made it sound like rural America is dumb as a rock where 1350 is god-like. Many of these kids -- if they didn't take the full-ride at my school -- go on to Ivy+.

"The people who built this country, and the institutions aren't worthy of attending the institutions that their forefather's built". An uncomfortable truth is that Asians have been 20% of the elite schools for a couple decades, but haven't gone on to do the things that the Ivies care about. Look at Dartmouth's famous alumni. Tim Geithner (federal reserve NY), Hank Paulson (Pentagon->Goldman->Treasury), Dr. Seuss, Jeffrey Gundlach (musician->portfolio manager). Despite Asians having access to these elite institutions, they haven't become constitutional attorneys, or federal prosecutors, or other jobs that are culturally significant.

Nobody cares about the alumni who make $750k-$1.5mm as an engineer at some tech company. They need social and politically capital-rich alumni.

I don't mean this in a mean way. Maybe this will change, but this is a conversation I have had with my Asian friends. To a certain degree the Italians have been the same in this regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

No. I live in rural America with only two high schools and three Walmarts. Because I want a faculty job at a large state U. 1350 is not extraordinary. Neither is 1450. Each year the number of 1500+ scorers from the two high schools combined fluctuates around 30. Most of the kids are either Asians or children of faculty, but there are some from regular white families as well. You made it sound like rural America is dumb as a rock where 1350 is god-like. Many of these kids -- if they didn't take the full-ride at my school -- go on to Ivy+.

This! DCUM seems to think that rural America is a bunch of idiots. Yes, these schools have several students who will go into the trades, but they still have a top 5% who are very educated and college ready. Please get out of your bubble!