Why no business major at (most of) the Ivies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yet, Wharton, Stern, Dyson are among the best pipelines to Wall Street.

100+

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yet, Wharton, Stern, Dyson are among the best pipelines to Wall Street.

100+

Not saying they are not. But there are too many people who think they are the only pipelines to Wall Street. And think that they know everything and that those who pursue non-econ/stem/business/engineering degrees are foolish and will be unsuccessful in life. And many of these people (a ton of whom post here) have a tremendous level of self-confidence about this opinion. But have never set foot in a Wall Street bank, law firm, corporate board room, elite country club, or anything of the sort. But they know. Oh yes, they do.

[Anonymous]

After readings this thread, feel kid may have not made the best decision going to USC Marshall...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The three most popular majors at Harvard are economics, government (political science) and computer science.

Regardless of what you decide economics is, CS is about as "trade" as engineering and business. Most people go into it hoping to make $, not because they love it so much. It has a high "my parents made me major in this" factor.

[Anonymous]

Kid went to Cornell Nolan. Works for a large PE in NYC focused on CRE investments. Placement was not hard. The Cornell connection was amazing and a huge plus.

He would not have changed it for anything.

[Anonymous]

I’m a PM at a long/short equity hedge fund. Historically, we hired junior analysts who had completed two years in investment banking, but about eight years ago we began recruiting undergraduates still in college. The candidates we target are exceptional—bright, driven, and highly self-directed. We look broadly across institutions for talent and are never entranced by brand. Substance matters, and we try to find it.

That said, what continues to impress me about the HYP candidates is their ability to teach themselves complex material, and do so astonishingly quickly. For example, to my knowledge, Harvard doesn’t formally offer an undergraduate accounting course; however, the students we interview often show a sophisticated understanding of financial statements. That ability to learn translates. As part of the evaluation process, we give these kids projects with sometimes impossible timelines (because that is the reality we face everyday). If and when we hire full-time, when we drop these guys into new sectors, they get up to speed very rapidly.

I’ve also found that the HYP candidates that we ultimately really focus on (there is of course now a selection bias to consider) tend to excel at handling ambiguous, unstructured problems. They’re able to take loosely defined situations and frame them in ways that make rigorous analysis, and ultimately decision-making, possible. That skill is central to what we do as investors, and thus very valuable when we see it.

Finally, my observation has been that even at a young age, they tend to interact well with management teams. They’re confident, curious, and able to build rapport both in formal meetings and especially casual settings. That social ease often leads to better insights. What management says between the lines can be just as informative as what’s said outright.

I’m not sure whether these capabilities are something their schools actively teach, or if it simply reflects the kind of people who are drawn to these institutions. Either way, there seems to be a higher than average proportion of kids with an unusually strong ability to think independently, structure complexity, and ultimately help us drive returns.

I have a kid of my own applying this fall, and this is where I hope he ends up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After readings this thread, feel kid may have not made the best decision going to USC Marshall...

Because some probably Gen-X or older Ivy humanities majors made some vague allusions to their insider knowledge? The world is changing all around us. The WASP noblesse oblige tradition is pretty dead. Tomorrow's Ivy grads are going to be an even smaller share of top graduates and they are selected in totally different ways from 30 years ago. The situation may be totally scrambled from what once was.

Just make sure your business major kid is intellectually curious and authentically socially polished (not just case interview prepped). Social polish was the original point of a gentleman's liberal arts education. Apologies if you have a DD. If so, the person on here who comments that successful businesswomen play team sports and join sororities may have a nugget of insight for you. Women of equal brains still need more EQ to rise.

The problem with "pre-professionalism" is that it's a bit over-goal-focused and simplistic. Being intellectually curious overcomes that. And is also available to business majors. Quantitative rigor should also be sought out. I am encouraging my poli sci major to remember this, and his coursework reflects it.

The big flaw in BBA work is that it's somewhat redundant with an MBA curriculum. So if you want an MBA someday, there's some wasteful overlap that isn't present with other Master's degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a PM at a long/short equity hedge fund. Historically, we hired junior analysts who had completed two years in investment banking, but about eight years ago we began recruiting undergraduates still in college. The candidates we target are exceptional—bright, driven, and highly self-directed. We look broadly across institutions for talent and are never entranced by brand. Substance matters, and we try to find it.

That said, what continues to impress me about the HYP candidates is their ability to teach themselves complex material, and do so astonishingly quickly. For example, to my knowledge, Harvard doesn’t formally offer an undergraduate accounting course; however, the students we interview often show a sophisticated understanding of financial statements. That ability to learn translates. As part of the evaluation process, we give these kids projects with sometimes impossible timelines (because that is the reality we face everyday). If and when we hire full-time, when we drop these guys into new sectors, they get up to speed very rapidly.

I’ve also found that the HYP candidates that we ultimately really focus on (there is of course now a selection bias to consider) tend to excel at handling ambiguous, unstructured problems. They’re able to take loosely defined situations and frame them in ways that make rigorous analysis, and ultimately decision-making, possible. That skill is central to what we do as investors, and thus very valuable when we see it.

Finally, my observation has been that even at a young age, they tend to interact well with management teams. They’re confident, curious, and able to build rapport both in formal meetings and especially casual settings. That social ease often leads to better insights. What management says between the lines can be just as informative as what’s said outright.

I’m not sure whether these capabilities are something their schools actively teach, or if it simply reflects the kind of people who are drawn to these institutions. Either way, there seems to be a higher than average proportion of kids with an unusually strong ability to think independently, structure complexity, and ultimately help us drive returns.

I have a kid of my own applying this fall, and this is where I hope he ends up.

Finance departments as well as graduate business schools often teach Financial Statements Analysis classes. They are not Accounting classes per se.

Regarding whether social polish "reflects the kind of people who are drawn to these institutions"...I'd say this is part of the intake screening of the admissions process. The consultancies famously screen for this kind of thing, privileging particular personality types even over intellect. This is also why men who are athletes and ex-military are popular candidates. There is both the appearance of manly leadership qualities along with the ability to fit into a larger hierarchical organization and play a defined part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

This is so true, as a SLAC grad myself. DC is headed to an Ivy as an English major. It's so interesting to see the reactions - to many they think it means no money and becoming a barista at Starbucks (I laugh along), but I also know that it could also lead to many other careers and there is no way I can even begin to explain that to someone who doesn't get it.

Laugh all the way to the bank as they say. I am with you, and PP. Once you have a student at an ivy (or T10 private or Williams-Amherst-Swat) it becomes clear exactly what it is you are paying for, or not paying much for if like the majority your kid has aid. The education is second to none: peers make the education as much as top faculty. Opportunities for internships, jobs, and tracks to the next step in education if they choose that are unmatchted

[Anonymous]

Forget the Ivies, go to Holy Cross one of the very few top 25 SLACs that offers accounting degree. HC grads are significantly overrepresented in Corporate Anerica C suite roles much more so than Amherst, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore.

[Anonymous]

Colleges especially Ivies used to operate as country clubs for rich Whites. Some of the tradition is still there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

This is so true, as a SLAC grad myself. DC is headed to an Ivy as an English major. It's so interesting to see the reactions - to many they think it means no money and becoming a barista at Starbucks (I laugh along), but I also know that it could also lead to many other careers and there is no way I can even begin to explain that to someone who doesn't get it.

Laugh all the way to the bank as they say. I am with you, and PP. Once you have a student at an ivy (or T10 private or Williams-Amherst-Swat) it becomes clear exactly what it is you are paying for, or not paying much for if like the majority your kid has aid. The education is second to none: peers make the education as much as top faculty. Opportunities for internships, jobs, and tracks to the next step in education if they choose that are unmatchted

lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No business major offered at Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Columbia. Cornell the "land grant Ivy" is an exception, and even Penn's Wharton School grants the BS in economics presumably because they don't want to embarrass their graduates with a lowly business degree. Why don't most of the Ivies offer a business major?

They want your grad school $ too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Forget the Ivies, go to Holy Cross one of the very few top 25 SLACs that offers accounting degree. HC grads are significantly overrepresented in Corporate America C suite roles much more so than Amherst, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore.

You have been repeating this time and time again on multiple threads over time. Since I have a bit of time on a Sunday morning while sitting here with my coffee I decided to put your assertion to some scrutiny and and dig in a bit using paid AI tools. I did it for both National Universities and National SLACs but I will focus on SLACs here since I am responding to the Holy Cross booster. The results are interesting but alas your overrepresentation claim does not hold up to analysis.

Six SLACS dominate appearing in basically the same positions regardless of AI model

Williams
Amherst
Bowdoin
Wellesley
Middlebury
Claremont McKenna

These schools are the consistent top of every list.

Vassar, Hamilton, Swarthmore, and Colgate round out the top 10 schools.

NESCAC dominance among the SLACs is very real.

Expanding into the top 20 or SLACs for major board representation is also interesting.

Pomona falls in this bucket in every model. The "Intellectual Powers of the SLAC world", Swat and Pomona do get traction (after they get PhDs?)

The NESCAC continues to dominate with Hamilton, Colby, Trinity, Bates, and Wesleyan all sitting in the top 20. Almost half of the top 20 are NESCAC schools.

The Patriot League (Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette) shows up in the latter part of to5 20 except for Colgate which is in the 10-15 bucket. Bucknell's representation is in Finance (path to the Street!) even though they aren't even a semi-feeder which is a bit of a surprise but maybe the booster has legs (small ones) and you can get to the c-suite via Holy Cross (which is a great school) though in truth their representation is a small fraction of that of any of the top six above. Lehigh would also appear at the top this bucket but it is considered a National University in the USNWR rankings. In short the Patriot League shows strong results.

Regional powers emerge as well with Davidson and W&L sitting in the top 15 representing the South.

Women's colleges punch far above their weight with Wellesley, Smith, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, and Mount Holyoke all sitting in the top 30.

There are a couple of surprises with both Kenyon College and St. Lawrence University producing significant numbers beyond what might be otherwise expected.

[Anonymous]

Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.