Why no business major at (most of) the Ivies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

What does “Better” mean? Not comparing or competing here…He had all the access in the world. 3 offers came from 3 of the top groups in the city. All of which pick kids from several Ivies, including Cornell. His incoming group at his firm had 9 kids from Cornell, Wharton, Princeton and Dartmouth…At the end of the day, there might “better” placements elsewhere, but we have had absolutely zero complaints about Cornell’s access and placement options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

Agreed. The placements out of Wharton are also insane. The network is incredible.


What does “Better” mean? Not comparing or competing here…He had all the access in the world. 3 offers came from 3 of the top groups in the city. All of which pick kids from several Ivies, including Cornell. His incoming group at his firm had 9 kids from Cornell, Wharton, Princeton and Dartmouth…At the end of the day, there might “better” placements elsewhere, but we have had absolutely zero complaints about Cornell’s access and placement options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

What does “Better” mean? Not comparing or competing here…He had all the access in the world. 3 offers came from 3 of the top groups in the city. All of which pick kids from several Ivies, including Cornell. His incoming group at his firm had 9 kids from Cornell, Wharton, Princeton and Dartmouth…At the end of the day, there might “better” placements elsewhere, but we have had absolutely zero complaints about Cornell’s access and placement options.

Great school, wasn't trying to put down the school or results in any way. By better, I mean efficiency in achieving the result which I would measure as per-capita placement from schools with similar recruiting opportunities. By that measure there are quite a few schools which provide an easier path to the same result.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

What does “Better” mean? Not comparing or competing here…He had all the access in the world. 3 offers came from 3 of the top groups in the city. All of which pick kids from several Ivies, including Cornell. His incoming group at his firm had 9 kids from Cornell, Wharton, Princeton and Dartmouth…At the end of the day, there might “better” placements elsewhere, but we have had absolutely zero complaints about Cornell’s access and placement options.

Great school, wasn't trying to put down the school or results in any way. By better, I mean efficiency in achieving the result which I would measure as per-capita placement from schools with similar recruiting opportunities. By that measure there are quite a few schools which provide an easier path to the same result.

I’m sure there are. Cornell is a huge school. But im taking specifically Dyson. 150 kids per class. Their placement I bet on a per capita basis is as good as anybody else. But if you include Cornell’s 16,000 student population, then sure…per capita looks ridiculous….but I guarantee a lot o these placements from cornell are 95% from Dyson and Nolan. So need to compare apples to apples here….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

As long as we're being honest...I'm wondering what you might think...

I understand what you describe and I believe you are correct that certain schools provide an easy fit into an elite lifestyle. However, do you think the school is the only differentiator? Or, do you think the kid from a wealthy Midwestern town who despite being well-educated and intellectually curious and perhaps even well traveled but who is unfamiliar with NYC or East Coast clubs, summering where you summer, and whose family acquaintances have never crossed paths with those who hold the levers of society would receive the same reception from Wall Street/IB upon graduation from an ivy as the kids who have lived entirely in this elite world?

I'm skeptical that the Ivy prestige serves the same value to the unconnected Midwestern student as it does for a student where the school is simply a natural part of their family path progression. I'm skeptical that the school alone provides an entry to the top levels of places like Wall Street.

What do you think?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

What does “Better” mean? Not comparing or competing here…He had all the access in the world. 3 offers came from 3 of the top groups in the city. All of which pick kids from several Ivies, including Cornell. His incoming group at his firm had 9 kids from Cornell, Wharton, Princeton and Dartmouth…At the end of the day, there might “better” placements elsewhere, but we have had absolutely zero complaints about Cornell’s access and placement options.

Great school, wasn't trying to put down the school or results in any way. By better, I mean efficiency in achieving the result which I would measure as per-capita placement from schools with similar recruiting opportunities. By that measure there are quite a few schools which provide an easier path to the same result.

I’m sure there are. Cornell is a huge school. But im taking specifically Dyson. 150 kids per class. Their placement I bet on a per capita basis is as good as anybody else. But if you include Cornell’s 16,000 student population, then sure…per capita looks ridiculous….but I guarantee a lot o these placements from cornell are 95% from Dyson and Nolan. So need to compare apples to apples here….

Dyson places very well (1/3 into IB) well but A&S and other areas will have many applicants as well. Overall many schools place more efficiently than Cornell but if you get into Dyson you’re in a great spot. If you get into Cornell anywhere you are in a far better spot than most as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

As long as we're being honest...I'm wondering what you might think...

I understand what you describe and I believe you are correct that certain schools provide an easy fit into an elite lifestyle. However, do you think the school is the only differentiator? Or, do you think the kid from a wealthy Midwestern town who despite being well-educated and intellectually curious and perhaps even well traveled but who is unfamiliar with NYC or East Coast clubs, summering where you summer, and whose family acquaintances have never crossed paths with those who hold the levers of society would receive the same reception from Wall Street/IB upon graduation from an ivy as the kids who have lived entirely in this elite world?

I'm skeptical that the Ivy prestige serves the same value to the unconnected Midwestern student as it does for a student where the school is simply a natural part of their family path progression. I'm skeptical that the school alone provides an entry to the top levels of places like Wall Street.

What do you think?

You can be skeptical all you want, but I'm an Ivy league grad who got a number of post undergrad-offers at IB firms and consulting firms, despite being an immigrant kid on financial aid with no family history at the Ivy. Would I have gotten better offers at more elite parts of those IB firms if I were the son/daughter of a head honcho somewhere and had connections? Probably yes, but those elite firms are recruiting like crazy at every Ivy, and once you're in, you're in and can show your worth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

As long as we're being honest...I'm wondering what you might think...

I understand what you describe and I believe you are correct that certain schools provide an easy fit into an elite lifestyle. However, do you think the school is the only differentiator? Or, do you think the kid from a wealthy Midwestern town who despite being well-educated and intellectually curious and perhaps even well traveled but who is unfamiliar with NYC or East Coast clubs, summering where you summer, and whose family acquaintances have never crossed paths with those who hold the levers of society would receive the same reception from Wall Street/IB upon graduation from an ivy as the kids who have lived entirely in this elite world?

I'm skeptical that the Ivy prestige serves the same value to the unconnected Midwestern student as it does for a student where the school is simply a natural part of their family path progression. I'm skeptical that the school alone provides an entry to the top levels of places like Wall Street.

What do you think?

It's parents, parents' friends, already having a free place to crash in NYC, having NE lifestyle hobbies, etc. Plus actually viewing what NYC has to offer positively.

I went to Michigan (since you brought up the Midwest). A lot of our grads who go to NYC for Finance jobs came from NYC in the first place.

A lot of our rich Midwestern business types who joined NYC circles made their money in big real estate. Not IB/PE.

This might be a weird example but when I was in B-School at Michigan, I was invited to dinner with Goldman Sachs and the young recruiter tried to impress me with their big salaries. I asked her if she had a washer and dryer within her own apartment space. Nope. A lot of Midwest people define luxury in terms of large houses, lawns, vacation property, and being able to DIY the things you want to do (of course you outsource the things you don't). It's not particularly luxurious to spend 80 hours a week or more cooped up making spreadsheets, slides, and dealing with one-dimensional MOTUs in exchange for big money but a small living space with few creature comforts that a SFH would have.

While I was in B-school, I once got an fly-in interview in New Hampshire that was 100% driven by bullshitting about skiing during the screening interview. I was probably the only person who felt like a fit for a NE job. (I have lived in several US regions.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

As long as we're being honest...I'm wondering what you might think...

I understand what you describe and I believe you are correct that certain schools provide an easy fit into an elite lifestyle. However, do you think the school is the only differentiator? Or, do you think the kid from a wealthy Midwestern town who despite being well-educated and intellectually curious and perhaps even well traveled but who is unfamiliar with NYC or East Coast clubs, summering where you summer, and whose family acquaintances have never crossed paths with those who hold the levers of society would receive the same reception from Wall Street/IB upon graduation from an ivy as the kids who have lived entirely in this elite world?

I'm skeptical that the Ivy prestige serves the same value to the unconnected Midwestern student as it does for a student where the school is simply a natural part of their family path progression. I'm skeptical that the school alone provides an entry to the top levels of places like Wall Street.

What do you think?

Good question. I think it is a lot harder but it is possible. A really smart kid from this background needs to have really good EQ and be willing and able to assimilate. Pay close attention to how the people they aspire to be behave and figure out how to do it without coming across as a phony poser (many of them end up clearly trying way too hard and coming across as phony posers). It's not easy but many people succeed at it. They will always be a bit behind those who are born into it, but they can largely bridge the gap. This reminds me of the great 80s movie Secret of my Success.

Contrast that with DCUM where you get countless posters who do not come from the elite background but think they know everything and that corporate America will adapt to the way they think things should be done. They might think they are at the top of the world but they don't know what they are missing. Not saying this to be a snob (though I guess I am). Just saying it to show what I know. And trust me, I am far from the top of the social hierarchy. But I am a lot closer than they are and I know enough to be able to play the game and interact with those types as necessary and not make a fool of myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

You clearly do not go to an Ivy-caliber school. Because someone who did would not make a nit-picky comment like this. Comments like this are what we are talking about where you think you know so much and are showing off but in fact are advertising your lack of social intelligence and appropriate elite cultural behavior. And you are totally clueless about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

You clearly do not go to an Ivy-caliber school. Because someone who did would not make a nit-picky comment like this. Comments like this are what we are talking about where you think you know so much and are showing off but in fact are advertising your lack of social intelligence and appropriate elite cultural behavior. And you are totally clueless about it.

I’m sorry if you feel hurt about my Cornell comment. I added context a few comments but c’est la vie.

Better than an Ivy, I went to a NESCAC. I then worked in IB then PE in the valley until I retired back to the East coast. I got an Ivy MBA along the way. My youngest kid is at a small school in NE as well, did Tuck Bridge after their freshman year and has a tier one internship lined up this summer. I probably could have lined up a PE internship for them but it is a hard jump straight to PE from undergrad so they’ll go the regular IB to PE route and I will help them out when the time comes.

I can talk about it because I lived it which is something that I’m pretty sure you haven’t done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

You clearly do not go to an Ivy-caliber school. Because someone who did would not make a nit-picky comment like this. Comments like this are what we are talking about where you think you know so much and are showing off but in fact are advertising your lack of social intelligence and appropriate elite cultural behavior. And you are totally clueless about it.

I’m sorry if you feel hurt about my Cornell comment. I added context a few comments but c’est la vie.

Better than an Ivy, I went to a NESCAC. I then worked in IB then PE in the valley until I retired back to the East coast. I got an Ivy MBA along the way. My youngest kid is at a small school in NE as well, did Tuck Bridge after their freshman year and has a tier one internship lined up this summer. I probably could have lined up a PE internship for them but it is a hard jump straight to PE from undergrad so they’ll go the regular IB to PE route and I will help them out when the time comes.

I can talk about it because I lived it which is something that I’m pretty sure you haven’t done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

You clearly do not go to an Ivy-caliber school. Because someone who did would not make a nit-picky comment like this. Comments like this are what we are talking about where you think you know so much and are showing off but in fact are advertising your lack of social intelligence and appropriate elite cultural behavior. And you are totally clueless about it.

I’m sorry if you feel hurt about my Cornell comment. I added context a few comments but c’est la vie.

Better than an Ivy, I went to a NESCAC. I then worked in IB then PE in the valley until I retired back to the East coast. I got an Ivy MBA along the way. My youngest kid is at a small school in NE as well, did Tuck Bridge after their freshman year and has a tier one internship lined up this summer. I probably could have lined up a PE internship for them but it is a hard jump straight to PE from undergrad so they’ll go the regular IB to PE route and I will help them out when the time comes.

I can talk about it because I lived it which is something that I’m pretty sure you haven’t done.

Oh no you didn't!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a Cornell kid here. Dyson. Just graduated last year and had 3 offers from NYC based investment groups. It is not about the education. It is about the network. Simple as that. The network is second to none.

Agree with the network piece, for IB network is a key advantage. However, there are many schools which place better than Cornell, especially adjusted for size.

You clearly do not go to an Ivy-caliber school. Because someone who did would not make a nit-picky comment like this. Comments like this are what we are talking about where you think you know so much and are showing off but in fact are advertising your lack of social intelligence and appropriate elite cultural behavior. And you are totally clueless about it.

I’m sorry if you feel hurt about my Cornell comment. I added context a few comments but c’est la vie.

Better than an Ivy, I went to a NESCAC. I then worked in IB then PE in the valley until I retired back to the East coast. I got an Ivy MBA along the way. My youngest kid is at a small school in NE as well, did Tuck Bridge after their freshman year and has a tier one internship lined up this summer. I probably could have lined up a PE internship for them but it is a hard jump straight to PE from undergrad so they’ll go the regular IB to PE route and I will help them out when the time comes.

I can talk about it because I lived it which is something that I’m pretty sure you haven’t done.

Oh no you didn't!

Oh yes she did!