Why no business major at (most of) the Ivies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forget the Ivies, go to Holy Cross one of the very few top 25 SLACs that offers accounting degree. HC grads are significantly overrepresented in Corporate America C suite roles much more so than Amherst, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore.

You have been repeating this time and time again on multiple threads over time. Since I have a bit of time on a Sunday morning while sitting here with my coffee I decided to put your assertion to some scrutiny and and dig in a bit using paid AI tools. I did it for both National Universities and National SLACs but I will focus on SLACs here since I am responding to the Holy Cross booster. The results are interesting but alas your overrepresentation claim does not hold up to analysis.

Six SLACS dominate appearing in basically the same positions regardless of AI model

Williams
Amherst
Bowdoin
Wellesley
Middlebury
Claremont McKenna

These schools are the consistent top of every list.

Vassar, Hamilton, Swarthmore, and Colgate round out the top 10 schools.

NESCAC dominance among the SLACs is very real.

Expanding into the top 20 or SLACs for major board representation is also interesting.

Pomona falls in this bucket in every model. The "Intellectual Powers of the SLAC world", Swat and Pomona do get traction (after they get PhDs?)

The NESCAC continues to dominate with Hamilton, Colby, Trinity, Bates, and Wesleyan all sitting in the top 20. Almost half of the top 20 are NESCAC schools.

The Patriot League (Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette) shows up in the latter part of to5 20 except for Colgate which is in the 10-15 bucket. Bucknell's representation is in Finance (path to the Street!) even though they aren't even a semi-feeder which is a bit of a surprise but maybe the booster has legs (small ones) and you can get to the c-suite via Holy Cross (which is a great school) though in truth their representation is a small fraction of that of any of the top six above. Lehigh would also appear at the top this bucket but it is considered a National University in the USNWR rankings. In short the Patriot League shows strong results.

Regional powers emerge as well with Davidson and W&L sitting in the top 15 representing the South.

Women's colleges punch far above their weight with Wellesley, Smith, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, and Mount Holyoke all sitting in the top 30.

There are a couple of surprises with both Kenyon College and St. Lawrence University producing significant numbers beyond what might be otherwise expected.

Women’s colleges are great regardless. No need to say punching above their weight. They get left out of the elite college discourse because of misogyny.

[Anonymous]

Elite institutions focus on foundational, intellectual education rather than technical or vocational business training. Thus, no elite school offers a BBA degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Elite institutions focus on foundational, intellectual education rather than technical or vocational business training. Thus, no elite school offers a BBA degree.

Umm . . . MIT is about as "intellectual" as they come and they have the undergraduate Sloan School of Management with a bunch of "business" classes. This whole discussion is just ridiculous. All of these colleges teach you to "think."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

IDK... too many people from the Harvards and Yales have seriously F*UP our world. I'll take a regular "trade" school graduate over an Ivy leaguer these days.

I think you just proved their point. Cherry picking a few bad eggs to make a broad generalization - lacking critical thinking skills and clearly not Ivy educated.

A FEW!!!!????!!!!

Check out the Supreme Court for starters.

Fine. Don't send your kid to an Ivy. More room for my kid.

That's not the point. The point is that you can't have it both ways. Either you make the argument that Ivy elites have the best jobs and dominate the power structure or you say it doesn't matter.

I'm not hearing the "doesn't matter" argument on this thread, so you get to take responsibility for the many, many Ivy grads like Trump, Cruz, DeSantis, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Hegseth, etc. etc. that are currently driving this country into the ditch.

To say there are only "a few" shows lack of critical thinking, lol.

The Ivies have failed America and owe us all a sincere apology for so many of their pathetically immoral graduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forget the Ivies, go to Holy Cross one of the very few top 25 SLACs that offers accounting degree. HC grads are significantly overrepresented in Corporate America C suite roles much more so than Amherst, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore.

You have been repeating this time and time again on multiple threads over time. Since I have a bit of time on a Sunday morning while sitting here with my coffee I decided to put your assertion to some scrutiny and and dig in a bit using paid AI tools. I did it for both National Universities and National SLACs but I will focus on SLACs here since I am responding to the Holy Cross booster. The results are interesting but alas your overrepresentation claim does not hold up to analysis.

Six SLACS dominate appearing in basically the same positions regardless of AI model

Williams
Amherst
Bowdoin
Wellesley
Middlebury
Claremont McKenna

These schools are the consistent top of every list.

Vassar, Hamilton, Swarthmore, and Colgate round out the top 10 schools.

NESCAC dominance among the SLACs is very real.

Expanding into the top 20 or SLACs for major board representation is also interesting.

Pomona falls in this bucket in every model. The "Intellectual Powers of the SLAC world", Swat and Pomona do get traction (after they get PhDs?)

The NESCAC continues to dominate with Hamilton, Colby, Trinity, Bates, and Wesleyan all sitting in the top 20. Almost half of the top 20 are NESCAC schools.

The Patriot League (Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette) shows up in the latter part of to5 20 except for Colgate which is in the 10-15 bucket. Bucknell's representation is in Finance (path to the Street!) even though they aren't even a semi-feeder which is a bit of a surprise but maybe the booster has legs (small ones) and you can get to the c-suite via Holy Cross (which is a great school) though in truth their representation is a small fraction of that of any of the top six above. Lehigh would also appear at the top this bucket but it is considered a National University in the USNWR rankings. In short the Patriot League shows strong results.

Regional powers emerge as well with Davidson and W&L sitting in the top 15 representing the South.

Women's colleges punch far above their weight with Wellesley, Smith, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, and Mount Holyoke all sitting in the top 30.

There are a couple of surprises with both Kenyon College and St. Lawrence University producing significant numbers beyond what might be otherwise expected.

Women’s colleges are great regardless. No need to say punching above their weight. They get left out of the elite college discourse because of misogyny.

No misogyny intended. I was referring to their small numbers and size. There are less than 30 of them left in the US so to have 5 in the top 30 is incredible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Elite institutions focus on foundational, intellectual education rather than technical or vocational business training. Thus, no elite school offers a BBA degree.

Granny, it's not 1950s anymore.
It's 21st century already. Wake up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

As long as we're being honest...I'm wondering what you might think...

I understand what you describe and I believe you are correct that certain schools provide an easy fit into an elite lifestyle. However, do you think the school is the only differentiator? Or, do you think the kid from a wealthy Midwestern town who despite being well-educated and intellectually curious and perhaps even well traveled but who is unfamiliar with NYC or East Coast clubs, summering where you summer, and whose family acquaintances have never crossed paths with those who hold the levers of society would receive the same reception from Wall Street/IB upon graduation from an ivy as the kids who have lived entirely in this elite world?

I'm skeptical that the Ivy prestige serves the same value to the unconnected Midwestern student as it does for a student where the school is simply a natural part of their family path progression. I'm skeptical that the school alone provides an entry to the top levels of places like Wall Street.

What do you think?

Good question. I think it is a lot harder but it is possible. A really smart kid from this background needs to have really good EQ and be willing and able to assimilate. Pay close attention to how the people they aspire to be behave and figure out how to do it without coming across as a phony poser (many of them end up clearly trying way too hard and coming across as phony posers). It's not easy but many people succeed at it. They will always be a bit behind those who are born into it, but they can largely bridge the gap. This reminds me of the great 80s movie Secret of my Success.

Contrast that with DCUM where you get countless posters who do not come from the elite background but think they know everything and that corporate America will adapt to the way they think things should be done. They might think they are at the top of the world but they don't know what they are missing. Not saying this to be a snob (though I guess I am). Just saying it to show what I know. And trust me, I am far from the top of the social hierarchy. But I am a lot closer than they are and I know enough to be able to play the game and interact with those types as necessary and not make a fool of myself.

Thanks for responding. I agree with your assessments, including that it is foolhardy to think the "top" will adapt to newcomers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forget the Ivies, go to Holy Cross one of the very few top 25 SLACs that offers accounting degree. HC grads are significantly overrepresented in Corporate America C suite roles much more so than Amherst, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore.

You have been repeating this time and time again on multiple threads over time. Since I have a bit of time on a Sunday morning while sitting here with my coffee I decided to put your assertion to some scrutiny and and dig in a bit using paid AI tools. I did it for both National Universities and National SLACs but I will focus on SLACs here since I am responding to the Holy Cross booster. The results are interesting but alas your overrepresentation claim does not hold up to analysis.

Six SLACS dominate appearing in basically the same positions regardless of AI model

Williams
Amherst
Bowdoin
Wellesley
Middlebury
Claremont McKenna

These schools are the consistent top of every list.

Vassar, Hamilton, Swarthmore, and Colgate round out the top 10 schools.

NESCAC dominance among the SLACs is very real.

Expanding into the top 20 or SLACs for major board representation is also interesting.

Pomona falls in this bucket in every model. The "Intellectual Powers of the SLAC world", Swat and Pomona do get traction (after they get PhDs?)

The NESCAC continues to dominate with Hamilton, Colby, Trinity, Bates, and Wesleyan all sitting in the top 20. Almost half of the top 20 are NESCAC schools.

The Patriot League (Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette) shows up in the latter part of to5 20 except for Colgate which is in the 10-15 bucket. Bucknell's representation is in Finance (path to the Street!) even though they aren't even a semi-feeder which is a bit of a surprise but maybe the booster has legs (small ones) and you can get to the c-suite via Holy Cross (which is a great school) though in truth their representation is a small fraction of that of any of the top six above. Lehigh would also appear at the top this bucket but it is considered a National University in the USNWR rankings. In short the Patriot League shows strong results.

Regional powers emerge as well with Davidson and W&L sitting in the top 15 representing the South.

Women's colleges punch far above their weight with Wellesley, Smith, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, and Mount Holyoke all sitting in the top 30.

There are a couple of surprises with both Kenyon College and St. Lawrence University producing significant numbers beyond what might be otherwise expected.

Women’s colleges are great regardless. No need to say punching above their weight. They get left out of the elite college discourse because of misogyny.

No misogyny intended. I was referring to their small numbers and size. There are less than 30 of them left in the US so to have 5 in the top 30 is incredible.

I appreciate the clarification. Apologies for being defensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

IDK... too many people from the Harvards and Yales have seriously F*UP our world. I'll take a regular "trade" school graduate over an Ivy leaguer these days.

I think you just proved their point. Cherry picking a few bad eggs to make a broad generalization - lacking critical thinking skills and clearly not Ivy educated.

A FEW!!!!????!!!!

Check out the Supreme Court for starters.

Fine. Don't send your kid to an Ivy. More room for my kid.

That's not the point. The point is that you can't have it both ways. Either you make the argument that Ivy elites have the best jobs and dominate the power structure or you say it doesn't matter.

I'm not hearing the "doesn't matter" argument on this thread, so you get to take responsibility for the many, many Ivy grads like Trump, Cruz, DeSantis, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Hegseth, etc. etc. that are currently driving this country into the ditch.

To say there are only "a few" shows lack of critical thinking, lol.

+1 there is an outsized presence of ivy grads in the power circles. They have truly F*UP this world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forget the Ivies, go to Holy Cross one of the very few top 25 SLACs that offers accounting degree. HC grads are significantly overrepresented in Corporate America C suite roles much more so than Amherst, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore.

You have been repeating this time and time again on multiple threads over time. Since I have a bit of time on a Sunday morning while sitting here with my coffee I decided to put your assertion to some scrutiny and and dig in a bit using paid AI tools. I did it for both National Universities and National SLACs but I will focus on SLACs here since I am responding to the Holy Cross booster. The results are interesting but alas your overrepresentation claim does not hold up to analysis.

Six SLACS dominate appearing in basically the same positions regardless of AI model

Williams
Amherst
Bowdoin
Wellesley
Middlebury
Claremont McKenna

These schools are the consistent top of every list.

Vassar, Hamilton, Swarthmore, and Colgate round out the top 10 schools.

NESCAC dominance among the SLACs is very real.

Expanding into the top 20 or SLACs for major board representation is also interesting.

Pomona falls in this bucket in every model. The "Intellectual Powers of the SLAC world", Swat and Pomona do get traction (after they get PhDs?)

The NESCAC continues to dominate with Hamilton, Colby, Trinity, Bates, and Wesleyan all sitting in the top 20. Almost half of the top 20 are NESCAC schools.

The Patriot League (Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lafayette) shows up in the latter part of to5 20 except for Colgate which is in the 10-15 bucket. Bucknell's representation is in Finance (path to the Street!) even though they aren't even a semi-feeder which is a bit of a surprise but maybe the booster has legs (small ones) and you can get to the c-suite via Holy Cross (which is a great school) though in truth their representation is a small fraction of that of any of the top six above. Lehigh would also appear at the top this bucket but it is considered a National University in the USNWR rankings. In short the Patriot League shows strong results.

Regional powers emerge as well with Davidson and W&L sitting in the top 15 representing the South.

Women's colleges punch far above their weight with Wellesley, Smith, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, and Mount Holyoke all sitting in the top 30.

There are a couple of surprises with both Kenyon College and St. Lawrence University producing significant numbers beyond what might be otherwise expected.

Women’s colleges are great regardless. No need to say punching above their weight. They get left out of the elite college discourse because of misogyny.

No misogyny intended. I was referring to their small numbers and size. There are less than 30 of them left in the US so to have 5 in the top 30 is incredible.

I appreciate the clarification. Apologies for being defensive.

You are welcome, you brought up a very fair point.