Why no business major at (most of) the Ivies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No business major offered at Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Columbia. Cornell the "land grant Ivy" is an exception, and even Penn's Wharton School grants the BS in economics presumably because they don't want to embarrass their graduates with a lowly business degree. Why don't most of the Ivies offer a business major?

Because it is unnecessary if you attend an Ivy/elite. Bachelors in Economics or Math or frankly any major/concentration with the the right courses can and do get top investment banking jobs or can launch a startup. For top consulting, engineering and phyics majors have been the target for many years, not Econ or business, though in general they strongly favor target schools (ivy+). Bachelors of Business Administration is a cushy degree that is not well respected at the top companies. That is why Wharton's is a BSEcon. Economics and math majors at ivy/elite do better than UNC's or UVA's undergrad school of business, which are supposedly good ones.

Realistically all that's being filtered for is quantitative ability (which is dependent on training).

High schoolers tend to head for the major that maximizes their career prospects while matching their quant ability (highest math taken in school and math SAT).

There are studies that show that quantitative skill level and high salaries are highly correlated. Especially for women.

It's not that business needs to be cushy or is cushy. What the PP is talking about above is basically a crude sorting based on quant abilities, even within Ivies.

And let's get real. Most of what people study in school, even at an excellent school, has no relevance to what they do on the job. I say this as an economics major with a top MBA. Few of the MBAs I know have directly used anything from course material. In fact, it's rather surprising to see who has become the most successful 25 years later. It's certainly not the brightest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because the Ivies are not trade schools.

lol how dumb is this statement.

The idea of "trade schools" as less than, not very academic, and only for people who actually have to work for a living is very outdated.

Currently, the Ivies are trade schools that mostly produce consultants. When old school WASP rich people elevated the intellectual nature of Ivies, they were not thinking about vast quantities of graduates entering a rent-a-brain profession like consulting where the graduates would only stay in the industry for a few years. They were thinking of intellectual vocations like being a minister, lawyer, doctor, PhD professor, etc. Or being hereditarily wealthy and joining the family business after receiving a traditional liberal arts education befitting a gentleman (women did not have direct access at some of these schools until fairly recently).

America has always had less stigma about rich people being self-made or being from industries that are connected to the trades.

When you look at the mythology around Wall Street and IB/PE, Silicon Valley and the dropout tech bro billionaires, and other culturally relevant businesses where smart people aspire to work, it's hard to say that people value Ivy League style academic intensity much anymore. What they still value is being smart, rich, and connected. None of those three qualities require an academic/intellectual outlook on life.

This is so…wrong. You’re just merging pre professional to trade school. Harvard doesn’t teach you HOW to be a consultant, nor an investment banker. There isn’t accreditation body that says you went to Harvard, therefore you are qualified to go into finance or tech. The ivies still dominate the “intellectual” careers you care about. They’re quite good at most everything, which is the point. The only mythology is your personal obsession with the tech class dropouts- harvard’s graduation rate is around 97-98%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m an IR grad in DC and don’t know any business majors, so apologies to the better educated:

What IS a business degree if you take out the economics and finance? What is the remainder of the coursework?

Marketing. Accounting. "Strategy." Management. Data Analytics. BLaw and Ethics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because the Ivies are not trade schools.

lol how dumb is this statement.

The idea of "trade schools" as less than, not very academic, and only for people who actually have to work for a living is very outdated.

Currently, the Ivies are trade schools that mostly produce consultants. When old school WASP rich people elevated the intellectual nature of Ivies, they were not thinking about vast quantities of graduates entering a rent-a-brain profession like consulting where the graduates would only stay in the industry for a few years. They were thinking of intellectual vocations like being a minister, lawyer, doctor, PhD professor, etc. Or being hereditarily wealthy and joining the family business after receiving a traditional liberal arts education befitting a gentleman (women did not have direct access at some of these schools until fairly recently).

America has always had less stigma about rich people being self-made or being from industries that are connected to the trades.

When you look at the mythology around Wall Street and IB/PE, Silicon Valley and the dropout tech bro billionaires, and other culturally relevant businesses where smart people aspire to work, it's hard to say that people value Ivy League style academic intensity much anymore. What they still value is being smart, rich, and connected. None of those three qualities require an academic/intellectual outlook on life.

This is so…wrong. You’re just merging pre professional to trade school. Harvard doesn’t teach you HOW to be a consultant, nor an investment banker. There isn’t accreditation body that says you went to Harvard, therefore you are qualified to go into finance or tech. The ivies still dominate the “intellectual” careers you care about. They’re quite good at most everything, which is the point. The only mythology is your personal obsession with the tech class dropouts- harvard’s graduation rate is around 97-98%

:roll: Sure, whatever you say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because the Ivies are not trade schools.

lol how dumb is this statement.

The idea of "trade schools" as less than, not very academic, and only for people who actually have to work for a living is very outdated.

Currently, the Ivies are trade schools that mostly produce consultants. When old school WASP rich people elevated the intellectual nature of Ivies, they were not thinking about vast quantities of graduates entering a rent-a-brain profession like consulting where the graduates would only stay in the industry for a few years. They were thinking of intellectual vocations like being a minister, lawyer, doctor, PhD professor, etc. Or being hereditarily wealthy and joining the family business after receiving a traditional liberal arts education befitting a gentleman (women did not have direct access at some of these schools until fairly recently).

America has always had less stigma about rich people being self-made or being from industries that are connected to the trades.

When you look at the mythology around Wall Street and IB/PE, Silicon Valley and the dropout tech bro billionaires, and other culturally relevant businesses where smart people aspire to work, it's hard to say that people value Ivy League style academic intensity much anymore. What they still value is being smart, rich, and connected. None of those three qualities require an academic/intellectual outlook on life.

This is so…wrong. You’re just merging pre professional to trade school. Harvard doesn’t teach you HOW to be a consultant, nor an investment banker. There isn’t accreditation body that says you went to Harvard, therefore you are qualified to go into finance or tech. The ivies still dominate the “intellectual” careers you care about. They’re quite good at most everything, which is the point. The only mythology is your personal obsession with the tech class dropouts- harvard’s graduation rate is around 97-98%

PP. My POV here is that "trade school" as a social-class-related put-down is a slam on/synonym for "pre-professional" majors that are 4 year undergrad degrees.

True trade school is literally going to a plumber journeyman course. Or maybe pilot training. Or a two year culinary arts degree. Things that people do not study at bachelor's degree granting institutions. BBA degrees from state flagships are not at all "trade school" synonymous from my POV. As with liberal arts degrees, you've studied a variety of things that generally relate to your interests but you are not particularly deeply qualified to do any particular business job. Unless maybe you attained a CPA due mainly to your studies.

There's no question that there is mythology in American popular culture around the idea of tech bro college dropouts. I know there aren't that many of them. My point is...there is cool factor now around personal statuses that don't require intensely intellectual accomplishments such as mastering Ancient Greek or having PhD-level academic training used to inspire. In fact, the wages and job markets for many types of PhDs are pretty terrible. Which again suggests the American scene generally devalues intellectual accomplishments in favor of business accomplishments (loosely defined). The Ivies just have the majors they have because of the weight of history, tradition, and residual snobbery. That is the answer to OP's question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an IR grad in DC and don’t know any business majors, so apologies to the better educated:

What IS a business degree if you take out the economics and finance? What is the remainder of the coursework?

Marketing. Accounting. "Strategy." Management. Data Analytics. BLaw and Ethics.

Operations Management. Organizational Behavior. Business electives of various sorts. Liberal arts distribution requirements.

Lots of group projects including fake or real consulting projects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an IR grad in DC and don’t know any business majors, so apologies to the better educated:

What IS a business degree if you take out the economics and finance? What is the remainder of the coursework?

Marketing. Accounting. "Strategy." Management. Data Analytics. BLaw and Ethics.

Operations Management. Organizational Behavior. Business electives of various sorts. Liberal arts distribution requirements.

Lots of group projects including fake or real consulting projects.

Yuck

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because the Ivies are not trade schools.

lol how dumb is this statement.

NP. It isn't dumb. It is exactly right. You don't have to agree with the tenets of a liberal arts education but you have to ackowledge that ivies and many other colleges do. Rather than training a student for one specific trade, a liberal arts education is by definition interdisciplinary and meant to provide the foundation for students to enter any profession.

It's called a profession my friend. Have you heard of it? Yes, that major in english, art and poly sci is really gonna prepare you to take on new world challenges that face us. Darn the students that major in Engineering lol. Safe water, safe fuel sources. On and on.. all things we need. Darn the STEM kids. lol

I don’t know, I think what we are seeing with how things are going in Iran right now proves the value of studying history and polysci. The deadeyed and clueless DOGE tech bros dbags who were deposed recently are not exactly a ringing endorsement for a narrow education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My SLAC didn't/doesn't offer it, either . . . I don't think that many do. It's not part of a classic curriculum that focuses on theory and critical thinking skills, versus practical and technical skills (that most graduates from elite schools will pick up on the job).

Companies now a days want people who can hit the ground running, and that often means already having the practical/technical skills on the job. That's why internships are so important.

No I want intelligent people with critical thinking skills. I can train them in the job skills but if they don’t have the ability to think and analyze, they are of no use to me.

lol listen to yourself. So, kid graduating with an Engineering degree lacks "critical thinking skills" or the "ability to think and analyze". Stop posting this nonsense.

We’re talking about business on this thread. That’s the context. Keep up, please.

[Anonymous]

if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an IR grad in DC and don’t know any business majors, so apologies to the better educated:

What IS a business degree if you take out the economics and finance? What is the remainder of the coursework?

Marketing. Accounting. "Strategy." Management. Data Analytics. BLaw and Ethics.

Operations Management. Organizational Behavior. Business electives of various sorts. Liberal arts distribution requirements.

Lots of group projects including fake or real consulting projects.

Yuck

Business is not everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. I find most coursework for English majors yuck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My SLAC didn't/doesn't offer it, either . . . I don't think that many do. It's not part of a classic curriculum that focuses on theory and critical thinking skills, versus practical and technical skills (that most graduates from elite schools will pick up on the job).

Companies now a days want people who can hit the ground running, and that often means already having the practical/technical skills on the job. That's why internships are so important.

No I want intelligent people with critical thinking skills. I can train them in the job skills but if they don’t have the ability to think and analyze, they are of no use to me.

lol listen to yourself. So, kid graduating with an Engineering degree lacks "critical thinking skills" or the "ability to think and analyze". Stop posting this nonsense.

We’re talking about business on this thread. That’s the context. Keep up, please.

A pp was talking about critical thinking skills in relation to major, and that "liberal arts" degrees teach critical thinking skills, and "trade" majors like Engineering don't teach that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if you wanted a job in PE or IB at a top firm, you'd have better odds as a history major from Yale than a business major out of Stern

This is just objectively not true at all. Stern has tremendous placement in IB and PE.

And Yale is better. It is 100% true.

Just joining this thread. It is a clear class divider in America (and by class, I am not just using wealth as a criteria) between those who understand the value of a non-pre-professional Ivy League/top SLAC degree and those who don't. There is a mentality among some people that you are totally wasting your time if you are not doing a pre-professional degree. While I somewhat understand the need to be concerned about ROI as the cost of college rapidly increases, particularly for those for whom the cost is a large portion of their net worth, this is a very short-sighted, narrow minded perspective.

To reach the upper reaches of white collar corporate America, it is critical thinking skills that matter the most, as well as people skills. To rise through the ranks of these places, it doesn't really matter what you studied as an undergrad. It matters how you navigate your way up. You can do this as a liberal arts major, a STEM major, or anything else.

I have worked on Wall Street most of my career. I have historically preferred hiring really smart Ivy League types, regardless of their degrees, over obsessively requiring a "business degree." I am happy to hire engineers as those skills are valuable, but not required.

When I talk to people who don't get this, or who say "why would you go to Williams?" I know to adjust the conversation accordingly. They just don't get it. Yes - I am a snob. I'll own that. But when these people who know so little about the levers of power in America talk to me like I am clueless when in fact I get the joke, I find it hilarious. YMMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My SLAC didn't/doesn't offer it, either . . . I don't think that many do. It's not part of a classic curriculum that focuses on theory and critical thinking skills, versus practical and technical skills (that most graduates from elite schools will pick up on the job).

Companies now a days want people who can hit the ground running, and that often means already having the practical/technical skills on the job. That's why internships are so important.

No I want intelligent people with critical thinking skills. I can train them in the job skills but if they don’t have the ability to think and analyze, they are of no use to me.

lol listen to yourself. So, kid graduating with an Engineering degree lacks "critical thinking skills" or the "ability to think and analyze". Stop posting this nonsense.

We’re talking about business on this thread. That’s the context. Keep up, please.

A pp was talking about critical thinking skills in relation to major, and that "liberal arts" degrees teach critical thinking skills, and "trade" majors like Engineering don't teach that.

Nope you seem confused and now you’re doubling down. See this is why those reading comprehension and critical thinking skills matter!