European families appear so perfect with such well-behaved children - how do they do it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

Considering how many Americans have European ethnicity (since America is still majority of white, most of us) it cannot be genetically related. It definitely has something to do with culture and society

There is a theory out there that Americans' ancestors were largely by definition people who could not make it in their country of origin, and therefore immigrated. The theory goes that therefore there are more learning disabilities and mental health issues among Americans than there are in those who remained in the countries of origin.

That's a very bizarre theory considering the limited financial progression opportunities that existed in olden times Europe. It's not like it was some capitalistic society wherein people had social or financial mobility. Maybe these people just dont understand history? Or that is was probably 100 times harder to say, immigrate to the US in the early days of settlement than living in a European city ever was. Oh well, people have all kinds of crackpot ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

Considering how many Americans have European ethnicity (since America is still majority of white, most of us) it cannot be genetically related. It definitely has something to do with culture and society

There is a theory out there that Americans' ancestors were largely by definition people who could not make it in their country of origin, and therefore immigrated. The theory goes that therefore there are more learning disabilities and mental health issues among Americans than there are in those who remained in the countries of origin.

Liar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

Considering how many Americans have European ethnicity (since America is still majority of white, most of us) it cannot be genetically related. It definitely has something to do with culture and society

There is a theory out there that Americans' ancestors were largely by definition people who could not make it in their country of origin, and therefore immigrated. The theory goes that therefore there are more learning disabilities and mental health issues among Americans than there are in those who remained in the countries of origin.

That theory must have come from someone who’s only seen immigrants on TV. On many measures of success immigrants and their kids score higher than the natives of comparable SES, and then it all wears down in the generations that follow. It takes a certain drive to pick up and leave and then some adaptability to figure it out once you’ve arrived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate to romanticize European parenting/lifestyle, but I cannot help but notice this every time I'm in France. We go to Paris twice a year to visit DH's parents so it's not just a one time coincidence. By and large children from as young as toddlers all the way up to teens seem better behaved and socialized. Authoritarian parenting does not explain it because often I notice the parents are more relaxed as well, especially the moms. I don't speak French so I don't have any close friendships with French moms, but the ones I have chatted with over the years through DH all shared one thing: they were able to take a long maternity leave (2-3 years) and then ease back into working with a part-time job that allowed them to continue supporting the kids, and still paid decently/aligned with their professional interests. So they are less stressed and overall more.. fulfilled (?) than I am, because they have less anxiety and guilt over the series of questions we see all the time here: do I become a SAHM? for how long? when do I get back to work? what about lost earning potential? killing my career? HOW do i even find a job after 3-5 years off?

Relatedly, they stress so much less about their kids. I'm not afraid to admit that while my kids are still in elementary school, I do occasionally worry about their "futures" - where they can get into college, how they are going to afford housing in expensive metro areas, are they going to end up OK - and I never get this sense of anxiety from French moms. They seem more hands-off which is counterintuitive to the idea that you need more discipline and active management for well behaved kids. I wish someone can explain to me how less micromanaging, less worry and anxiety about your kids can result in better behaved kids.

This is easy. Children thrive when they understand rules and expectations. Modern parenting leaves the children to set the rules, which is stressful in its own right. You are actually making things more difficult for your children by being permissive. It's so messed up.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The American lady in France that I follow on Insta says it is because French kids get in a lot of trouble by their parents. Apparently they are super harsh with their kids.

She said it is one thing she does not like about living there.

My European relatives whacked their kids.

[Anonymous]

People with badly behaved kids don't go on vacation to Morocco. There is a much stronger sense of peer pressure and of being judged, and if you cannot make your kids behave well, you don't go out in public.

Also, just a reminder that they have free excellent day care and very young children are handled and trained by professionals, not lazy SAHMs.

[Anonymous]

Hi OP.

Your post mentioned the European children seem happy.

Is happiness an important value to you? If so, are you doing the right things to create happiness in your children’s lives? In your own life?

- because most Americans don’t. Americans do not value nor pursue happiness.

Consider this clip featured in the UK

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The American lady in France that I follow on Insta says it is because French kids get in a lot of trouble by their parents. Apparently they are super harsh with their kids.

She said it is one thing she does not like about living there.

My European relatives whacked their kids.

Corporal punishment is illegal in most European countries and is used at FAR lower rates than it is in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Beating, shame.

Shame is a big part of the Asian culture. My mother tried that on me. Didn't really work. But, it does have its benefits.

-Asian American

East Asian here, I thought the Americans boys were way better than East Asian boys. My elementary school classmates about 15-20 boys routinely beat us girls up, I still have a few scars from this one who stabbed me with sharp objects.

They probably didn't go after the American girls, though, right? They went after you because you are Asian, as well.

IMO, the deep shame and harsh parenting styles of Asians makes kids have ptsd and act out.

More than likely, those Asian boys behaved better at home than the American boys, but that doesn't mean that those Asian boys were better kids.

- pp Asian American

Well there was no American girls in my home country. 😂 I am talking about homogenous society where the boys beat up the girls.
And I was largely ignored and left along in the US which was awesome. At the same time it’s sad to think that’s awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read through every post, but I find in Europe, kids are part of it. They learn to go out with their parents. This really isn’t the case in the US.

Go out for dinner or lunch or a hike in Germany, there are playgrounds at the many of the restaurants and alms. The kids hang out with other kids, and the grownups hang out. Children act as part of Scott because they are treated as part of society, not some weird luggage to be left at home until they have to come out and act like they’ve done it all before.

IMO, European kids are expected to grow up a lot earlier than in the US, and as such, they are treated like little adults earlier. With that comes expectations of certain behaviors.

UMC families in the US coddle their kids even well into college aged years. I'm on a FB parent group for my kid's college, and wow, some of the stuff parents are asking about...

I understand the worry but it's embarrassing for you and your kid to ask such questions.

Like what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in Morocco on vacation with our tween kids, and are staying in nice (but not fancy) family-friendly riads and hotels. Essentially everyone else is European - mostly French, Spanish, and German, with occasional Belgians or Scandinavians (which I know because they exchange brief pleasantries with one another around the pool in excellent English).

They are all attractive (moms with 4 kids and older teens are wearing bikinis - and look great!), have between 2-4 extremely well-behaved children, and the kids are relatively quiet but smiling and happy. The kids entertain themselves (in the pool, reading, playing cards), don’t pester their parents (who are reading actual books, not playing with their phones), and there is little to no crying or whining, except some age-appropriate crying from a baby - who was immediately picked up lovingly and tended to by her teenaged sister. The kids eat dinner with excellent manners, clean their plate, and the whole family sits and talks animatedly for the ~1.5 hours it takes to be served dinner (which doesn’t start until 8 or 8:30 PM).

And then the perfect European families are all up bright and early looking fabulous (parents and kids), having just finished breakfast when we straggle in bleary eyed at 9 AM.

I am so fascinated and intimidated. Every single Euro-family appears so calm, happy, well-behaved, and well-mannered, and looks great, (without appearing to need sleep). No one ever seems frazzled or even appears to get annoyed. How is this possible?

Europeans in general lead disciplined and structured lives, even their pets are well behaved.

Most American parents and institutions no longer believe in discipline and structure, those characteristics apparently have racist or equity connotations.

What is this garbage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

I think our culture makes dogs neurotic, kids brats, and parents micromanaging harpies.

[Anonymous]

I’m an American living in Western Europe. There are very high expectations for children in public places like restaurants and they get a lot of practice being in adult spaces from an early age. You would never, ever see a child with a screen of any type in a restaurant - even a parent’s phone. They learn to find other ways to be content while waiting for a meal. Most families don’t use screen time for long train rides either. Sport clothing is only for actually doing sports and even children wear “real” clothing everyday. And in general parents are actually less engaged in constantly stimulating their babies - you will see babies just contentedly sitting in their stroller watching the world go by while parents attend to other children. It’s all part of raising children to live in community and learn to respect the spaces around them. Even in schools they practice social behaviors.

As for the parents, there are significant tax credits that support hiring both a nanny and housekeeper, so parents aren’t so drained. Grandparents are also very involved. It means moms have time for self-care and that they have the patience to parent calmly when they are on-duty. Calm is in fact the most important part of family life. Calm children. Calm parent. I rarely see parents just lose it with their child.

That said, we live in one of the more “high expectations for children” counties. But every summer we go to Germany and just let our kids absolutely let loose digging and the mud and being wild because it’s more acceptable. It’s not all of Europe and parenting culture is very different by country!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

The people are calm too. In a more socialist society where you don't make a lot of $ but you have security of health insurance, free education etc. there is far less striving and stress forUMC families. These are also far smaller spaces, there isn't a lot of private space (large back yards etc) so you are always out in public and other people will correct your kids. Europeans and even more so the Japanese have a very strong culture of not inconveniencing others with their actions.

I agree with this. Work is a little less stressful. Homes are smaller. Health care is covered. Food is fresher. It all adds up.

😂😂😂😂
Life is NOT less stressful- this is like someone going to visit Thailand on vacation and thinking all Thais live life on the beach 24/7.

Incomes are much lower in Europe whereas taxes are much higher. Yes, food quality is better, although if youre rich in the United States you can likely afford organic or higher end food that avoids this issue. Homes/apartments are much smaller and often lack conveniences like washing machines, dishwashers, etc (but not always). Life in Europe is not some dolce vita fantasy where everyone is chilled out all the time, and frankly it's laughable when Americans think this way.

Income is lower but they don't have to worry about healthcare, education costs, retirement (as much). They have a stronger safety net, so life is less stressful. Vacations are cheaper in Europe; even lower income people are able to go to Greece for a holiday. My ILs live in the UK, and one of them is lower income, and they go on holidays. Low income people here generally don't go on holidays that require flying for a few hours.

We have some UMC friends in the UK, and we were talking about how much is needed to retire comfortably in the UK vs the US, and their figure is a lot lower than ours. We told them what are monthly expenses were, and they were shocked. They said we must be living a life of luxury. Ha. We have a good life, but it's far from "luxurious".

This is hilarious! Yes, they do have to worry about those things, and for example it's normal for Europeans to pay hundreds of dollars per month for health insurance- it is not "free" as we think it is in the US, not unless youre unemployed and fully living off benefits. Their taxes and social security costs are monumentally higher. Their incomes are much lower. So what may seem "cheap" to Americans is not "cheap" to the average European.

+1 material standard of living in the US is exponentially higher and cost of most material goods so much lower. Most ppl here have no idea hence the constant hum of "bad economy" - it's delusional.

[Anonymous]

OP here.
I’m now in a tent in the Sahara desert and can’t sleep…. There’s great cell coverage, which seems bizarre, but I’m bored, so I’ll take it!

The commentary here is so thoughtful and interesting!

We actually live in Manhattan (I found DCUM during a stint at the NIH), and our kids have far more “European” upbringing than their cousins in the suburbs, in that we live in a small apartment and have to be quiet because of our neighbors, we go to museums/broadway/out to eat regularly, the kids take the subway a few stops to school and tool around our neighborhood by themselves, and after school sports are far less intense than for their cousins in the burbs.

And yet… we are still just a frazzled mess compared to the European families. I am dumpy, our kids are whiny and moody, at dinner our kids can’t remember to put their napkins in their laps without me hissing at them, and we are unable to sustain a thoughtful conversation at the table that lasts >20 minutes without someone whining that they are bored and want to go get a book.

There are very thoughtful comments here. Maybe there is a significant component of “peer pressure” from society in general in Europe that helps kids learn to behave? And im sure I was too permissive with the kids, and it’s probably not great that we have family dinner maybe twice a week….ugh.

Ok going to try to go to sleep now (as a side note, the Sahara, specifically the dunes at erg chegaga, is pretty amazing). All of the thoughtful commentary and cultural insight is very interesting and much appreciated.