Serious effort to remove IB from FCPS?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

Hear hear! My daughter is a senior in an IB high school and it is amazing. She’s a full diploma candidate but you can take HL classes which are college level just like AP. I love that the big assessments are graded by teachers throughout the IB world in other places. The writing is truly based on critical thinking. Every college student I have talked to who did the IB diploma says college is easier than the full diploma. It’s outstanding preparation.

AP English classes require lots and lots of writing. So do AP History classes. IB does not have a monopoly on writing.

I prefer the way IB teaches writing, and I appreciate that the assessments are almost exclusively writing-based. I also appreciate the oral component in the IB program.

If you’re happy with AP, then great. I’m happy with IB.

You're in the minority in FCPS, and you're just feeding the fire by continuing to sing IB's praises knowing that most people do not want to be redistricted from AP schools into failing or under-enrolled IB schools.

I may be in the minority. That's not going to stop me from defending quality coursework. I have a reasoned, valuable viewpoint and the desire to share it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

AP English classes require lots and lots of writing. So do AP History classes. IB does not have a monopoly on writing.

I prefer the way IB teaches writing, and I appreciate that the assessments are almost exclusively writing-based. I also appreciate the oral component in the IB program.

If you’re happy with AP, then great. I’m happy with IB.

If you are at an IB school, how do you even know how AP teaches writing?

I don’t know about the original person you’re responding to but I have a senior IB diploma candidate and a sophomore kid at a private with AP. The assessments in IB HL courses are tougher and more focused on critical thinking they are often also graded by teachers outside of that school system so it’s more objective. Also my mom taught AP history honors history, and created courses with an English teacher teaching partner. My father was an ed policy wonk. I know good curriculum vs plug and play. AP plus more plug and play. IB is broader and deeper. It’s been outstanding and every college kid I speak to says after the IB DP, college is a breeze.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

I suspect you are responding to me. I *clearly defined* what I meant by assessment: the tests that determine whether students get college credit for a course. In AP, that is *ONE* assessment at the end of the year. Would you like to challenge me on that?

Of *COURSE* AP students take tests throughout the year. IB students do, as well. But they are also assessed for/by IB throughout the year. There's the difference I clearly defined above.

Look: I'm well-versed in both AP and IB as I have direct experience with both, as a teacher AND as a parent.

I'm not anti-AP. (It's silly to be against any program that has benefits to our students. You know... like AP as well as IB.) Have your AP. It works for you and that's great. But I'm going to defend IB as I prefer it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

AP English classes require lots and lots of writing. So do AP History classes. IB does not have a monopoly on writing.

I prefer the way IB teaches writing, and I appreciate that the assessments are almost exclusively writing-based. I also appreciate the oral component in the IB program.

If you’re happy with AP, then great. I’m happy with IB.

If you are at an IB school, how do you even know how AP teaches writing?

I don’t know about the original person you’re responding to but I have a senior IB diploma candidate and a sophomore kid at a private with AP. The assessments in IB HL courses are tougher and more focused on critical thinking they are often also graded by teachers outside of that school system so it’s more objective. Also my mom taught AP history honors history, and created courses with an English teacher teaching partner. My father was an ed policy wonk. I know good curriculum vs plug and play. AP plus more plug and play. IB is broader and deeper. It’s been outstanding and every college kid I speak to says after the IB DP, college is a breeze.

Don't you think the operative statement here is "IB Diploma Candidate?" And, your other child is a sophomore.
I can only speak for my own children--both had IB diploma roommates in college. And, both said they wished they had AP as the AP kids got more credit than they did. DD sailed through college, too.

Relatively few kids are pursuing the diploma. It is an extremely expensive program. It is enabling Pupil Placement for reasons other than desired. It is less flexible than AP. And, more families and students prefer AP.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

The goal of the IB diploma programme, or at least the original goal, is an IB diploma. The overwhelming majority of FCPS students in IB schools are not pursuing an IB diploma, and they could get just as valuable writing experience at lower cost to taxpayers in AP classes.

No... the goal isn't the diploma. Directly from the IB mission statement:

"The International Baccalaureate® aims to develop inquiring, knowledgeable and caring young people who help to create a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect. To this end the organization works with schools, governments and international organizations to develop challenging programmes of international education and rigorous assessment. These programmes encourage students across the world to become active, compassionate and lifelong learners who understand that other people, with their differences, can also be right."

I'd argue that now is a GREAT time to teach students to be compassionate, lifelong learners who can appreciate different viewpoints.

I've been to a ton of IB trainings over the years. Never once have I heard that the purpose of the program is to spit out diplomas. There's no quota.

You've regurgitated a bunch of PR puffery and conveniently overlooked the fact that every school that the IBO agrees to designate as an "IB World School" has to commit to offer the full diploma programme. Absent that commitment, which skews academic resources at IB schools, the school can't offer any IB courses at the HS level.

The IBO also characterizes its programmes for students ages 3-19 as the "Primary Years Programme" (i.e., IB prep at the ES level), the "Middle Years Programme (i.e., IB prep at the MS level), and the "Diploma Programme" (i.e., IB at the HS level). So, nice try, but fail on your part. While the IBO wouldn't say the purpose of the programme is to "spit out" diplomas, the main goal is absolutely the full IB diploma. Relatively few students in FCPS pursue a full IB diploma, however, and certainly not enough to justify the current expense.

We should not be funding eight IB schools and we certainly should not be considering redistricting kids from AP schools to IB schools against their will.

I suppose you at the same poster who is stuck on diplomas…

I’ve been teaching IB for 15 years. No, that mission statement is not “PR puffery.” Global issues are a major focus of the course, and students spend a significant amount of time analyzing texts through that lens. I appreciate the emphasis on global perspective that is crafted directly into our coursework.

And we have many students taking DP courses who are not DP candidates. I don’t see any of them stuck on the terminology. Plenty of us see the value of the coursework, and not merely the diploma. And they head off to college with 3-6 credits of college English, just like their AP counterparts.

[Anonymous]

It’s funny that the IB proponents stress how it develops critical thinking skills, yet they advocate for IB with no apparent recognition of the context in which the discussion is occurring.

If they are ignoring the strongly held views of others, however, and advocating that kids in AP schools get redistricted to low-performing IB schools that graduate few successful IB diploma candidates, they aren’t very good at synthesizing information or making a compelling argument. It’s a good thing IB cultivates “lifelong learners,” because these folks still have a lot left to learn.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand these arguments at all. IB is a fabulous program that is way better than the BS standard education out there. Look at FCCPS they are one of the top programs in the country and run the program from K to 12

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

AP English classes require lots and lots of writing. So do AP History classes. IB does not have a monopoly on writing.

I prefer the way IB teaches writing, and I appreciate that the assessments are almost exclusively writing-based. I also appreciate the oral component in the IB program.

If you’re happy with AP, then great. I’m happy with IB.

If you are at an IB school, how do you even know how AP teaches writing?

I don’t know about the original person you’re responding to but I have a senior IB diploma candidate and a sophomore kid at a private with AP. The assessments in IB HL courses are tougher and more focused on critical thinking they are often also graded by teachers outside of that school system so it’s more objective. Also my mom taught AP history honors history, and created courses with an English teacher teaching partner. My father was an ed policy wonk. I know good curriculum vs plug and play. AP plus more plug and play. IB is broader and deeper. It’s been outstanding and every college kid I speak to says after the IB DP, college is a breeze.

Don't you think the operative statement here is "IB Diploma Candidate?" And, your other child is a sophomore.
I can only speak for my own children--both had IB diploma roommates in college. And, both said they wished they had AP as the AP kids got more credit than they did. DD sailed through college, too.

Relatively few kids are pursuing the diploma. It is an extremely expensive program. It is enabling Pupil Placement for reasons other than desired. It is less flexible than AP. And, more families and students prefer AP.

This. AP is far more flexible and FCPS needs to eliminate IB if it is planning to redistrict kids into current IB schools.

I really don’t care if some IB teacher who probably gets to attend a bunch of IB conferences on our dime thinks it’s great. We’ve seen first-hand how prescriptive IB is for diploma candidates; how IB schools often place diploma candidates on a pedestal and treat the other kids as second-class; and how students view many of the assignments as busy work.

Keep the current IB schools if you must, FCPS, and are willing to overlook the ridiculously low IB diploma rates, but don’t think you can reassign kids at AP schools to IB schools without a fight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand these arguments at all. IB is a fabulous program that is way better than the BS standard education out there. Look at FCCPS they are one of the top programs in the country and run the program from K to 12

You write real good so IB must be great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

[Anonymous]

I guess for me it just feels like the vast majority of people who take advantage of IB are trying to escape their AP school or vice versa. It’d be interesting to look at the number of IB related transfers and see how many transfer to get out of their zoned schools.

My guess is it is a lot, maybe even the majority who take advantage of IB. That doesn’t strike me as a particularly compelling reason to plow millions of dollars into the IB program, especially in a time of supposed belt tightening.

[Anonymous]

Simple - FCPS has no requirement to have TWO advanced programs in high school. Having TWO causes more problems than it solves. You can argue all day about which one is better. Doesn't matter.

Two-thirds of FCPS high schools are AP, so the better fix is to go all AP (as it was many years ago).

Redistricting with TWO programs in place is just stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Starting a new conversation from a point within the Boundary Review discussion. I teach in an FCPS IB school and have taken a 40 hour course with teachers from around the world as well as trainings with in-county teachers. I'm amazed at what can be done in flexible, smaller schools and agree it can be an amazing program for students. That said, it does not work within our huge district: just some of the factors that inhibit it are large CLTs of several teachers in a content area needing to plan and stay on pace together (and never having planning or time off with teachers of other content areas), testing and SOLS, goals of equity among hundreds of schools, etc. etc. etc.

In addition, schools pay IB for accreditation based on how many teams/teachers are passing on complicated rubrics to students, how many cross-curriciular projects are happening (however surface...has your FCPS child in an IB school done any meaningful cross-subject learning??) and it's obviously within IB's interest to "pass"/approve them.

Is there any serious discussion in FCPS of eliminating IB? A working group? School Board members looking into it? Parent groups? Petitions? Anything?

It sounds like the reality is a lot less than the hype. Meanwhile it sounds like we pay a lot of unnecessary fees to IB.

What is a “CLT”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess for me it just feels like the vast majority of people who take advantage of IB are trying to escape their AP school or vice versa. It’d be interesting to look at the number of IB related transfers and see how many transfer to get out of their zoned schools.

My guess is it is a lot, maybe even the majority who take advantage of IB. That doesn’t strike me as a particularly compelling reason to plow millions of dollars into the IB program, especially in a time of supposed belt tightening.

I think this is a majority of kids that are transferring. Feels like you have a little bit of a choice which is nice..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

The goal of the IB diploma programme, or at least the original goal, is an IB diploma. The overwhelming majority of FCPS students in IB schools are not pursuing an IB diploma, and they could get just as valuable writing experience at lower cost to taxpayers in AP classes.

No... the goal isn't the diploma. Directly from the IB mission statement:

"The International Baccalaureate® aims to develop inquiring, knowledgeable and caring young people who help to create a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect. To this end the organization works with schools, governments and international organizations to develop challenging programmes of international education and rigorous assessment. These programmes encourage students across the world to become active, compassionate and lifelong learners who understand that other people, with their differences, can also be right."

I'd argue that now is a GREAT time to teach students to be compassionate, lifelong learners who can appreciate different viewpoints.

I've been to a ton of IB trainings over the years. Never once have I heard that the purpose of the program is to spit out diplomas. There's no quota.

You've regurgitated a bunch of PR puffery and conveniently overlooked the fact that every school that the IBO agrees to designate as an "IB World School" has to commit to offer the full diploma programme. Absent that commitment, which skews academic resources at IB schools, the school can't offer any IB courses at the HS level.

The IBO also characterizes its programmes for students ages 3-19 as the "Primary Years Programme" (i.e., IB prep at the ES level), the "Middle Years Programme (i.e., IB prep at the MS level), and the "Diploma Programme" (i.e., IB at the HS level). So, nice try, but fail on your part. While the IBO wouldn't say the purpose of the programme is to "spit out" diplomas, the main goal is absolutely the full IB diploma. Relatively few students in FCPS pursue a full IB diploma, however, and certainly not enough to justify the current expense.

We should not be funding eight IB schools and we certainly should not be considering redistricting kids from AP schools to IB schools against their will.

I suppose you at the same poster who is stuck on diplomas…

I’ve been teaching IB for 15 years. No, that mission statement is not “PR puffery.” Global issues are a major focus of the course, and students spend a significant amount of time analyzing texts through that lens. I appreciate the emphasis on global perspective that is crafted directly into our coursework.

And we have many students taking DP courses who are not DP candidates. I don’t see any of them stuck on the terminology. Plenty of us see the value of the coursework, and not merely the diploma. And they head off to college with 3-6 credits of college English, just like their AP counterparts.

You are misinformed about what’s taught in AP English, it does emphasize different perspectives and voices.

This is the textbook my kids AP class is using, there’s lots of writing, it’s rigorous.

https://www.bfwpub.com/high-school/us/product/The-Language-of-Composition/p/1319409253?selected_tab=Contents

Can you point to what’s being taught in IB so we can judge ourselves, you know critical thinking and all? I’d love to see a textbook, a treble of contents, anything really.