Serious effort to remove IB from FCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Simple - FCPS has no requirement to have TWO advanced programs in high school. Having TWO causes more problems than it solves. You can argue all day about which one is better. Doesn't matter.

Two-thirds of FCPS high schools are AP, so the better fix is to go all AP (as it was many years ago).

Redistricting with TWO programs in place is just stupid.

Should have been obvious by now, but very well put.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

AP English classes require lots and lots of writing. So do AP History classes. IB does not have a monopoly on writing.

I prefer the way IB teaches writing, and I appreciate that the assessments are almost exclusively writing-based. I also appreciate the oral component in the IB program.

If you’re happy with AP, then great. I’m happy with IB.

If you are at an IB school, how do you even know how AP teaches writing?

I don’t know about the original person you’re responding to but I have a senior IB diploma candidate and a sophomore kid at a private with AP. The assessments in IB HL courses are tougher and more focused on critical thinking they are often also graded by teachers outside of that school system so it’s more objective. Also my mom taught AP history honors history, and created courses with an English teacher teaching partner. My father was an ed policy wonk. I know good curriculum vs plug and play. AP plus more plug and play. IB is broader and deeper. It’s been outstanding and every college kid I speak to says after the IB DP, college is a breeze.

The argument from authority is getting so tired. IB is good because you, having taught both IB and AP, said so. You seem to come from a family of teaching experts, mom on AP History, father deep into ed policy. Didn’t quite get the part about the English teacher teaching partner but it must be proof you know your stuff. Not to mention your kids and the kids you know that said college was a breeze.

Besides that there not a shred of evidence or some factual information. Just PR puffery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Simple - FCPS has no requirement to have TWO advanced programs in high school. Having TWO causes more problems than it solves. You can argue all day about which one is better. Doesn't matter.

Two-thirds of FCPS high schools are AP, so the better fix is to go all AP (as it was many years ago).

Redistricting with TWO programs in place is just stupid.

There are THREE advanced programs in high school if you also count double enrollment at community colleges, which is free to the district so it makes even less sense to keep IB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope not. It’s an excellent program and we have been extremely pleased with the rigor.

The only rigor on display at most IB schools in FCPS is rigor mortis. That’s a main reason why they are so keen to redistrict. Easier than dealing with the root causes.

It’s fine to like AP better but you don’t need to insult IB just because you are not a fan. Just like people who like IB don’t need to diss AP. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

I’ve taught both AP and IB English. I prefer IB, and that’s where I placed my own child.

I’ve been listening to AP vs IB arguments for over a decade. I’ve noticed that most people against IB don’t have strong knowledge of the program.

We don't really need a program that results in 82.5% to 97.4% of the seniors at high schools within FCPS not getting a IB diploma, which is the original goal of IB at the high school level.

The IBO only started encouraging kids to take courses a la carte to generate more revenue when it became clear relatively few American students were interested in doing the full IB diploma "programme."

IB English produces writers. My own child wasn’t a diploma candidate, but her experience in IB courses turned her into a remarkably strong communicator.

There’s value in the classes, not just the program.

AP English classes require lots and lots of writing. So do AP History classes. IB does not have a monopoly on writing.

I prefer the way IB teaches writing, and I appreciate that the assessments are almost exclusively writing-based. I also appreciate the oral component in the IB program.

If you’re happy with AP, then great. I’m happy with IB.

If you are at an IB school, how do you even know how AP teaches writing?

I don’t know about the original person you’re responding to but I have a senior IB diploma candidate and a sophomore kid at a private with AP. The assessments in IB HL courses are tougher and more focused on critical thinking they are often also graded by teachers outside of that school system so it’s more objective. Also my mom taught AP history honors history, and created courses with an English teacher teaching partner. My father was an ed policy wonk. I know good curriculum vs plug and play. AP plus more plug and play. IB is broader and deeper. It’s been outstanding and every college kid I speak to says after the IB DP, college is a breeze.

The argument from authority is getting so tired. IB is good because you, having taught both IB and AP, said so. You seem to come from a family of teaching experts, mom on AP History, father deep into ed policy. Didn’t quite get the part about the English teacher teaching partner but it must be proof you know your stuff. Not to mention your kids and the kids you know that said college was a breeze.

Besides that there not a shred of evidence or some factual information. Just PR puffery.

From a cost-benefit perspective, the case for retaining IB if we are really going to change school boundaries is very weak. It just over-complicates things.

I know that’s a bummer for the teachers who love the expense-paid IBO training junkets, or the parents of the small percentage of IB diploma recipients who think that gives them bragging rights, but it shouldn’t be a hard decision. Or, at least it wouldn’t be, if FCPS was intelligently managed and didn’t increasingly specialize in driving families away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

The reality is how many students transfer to other schools because of IB. The reality IS the low number of IB diplomas when AP, less expensive, could do the a la carte job better. The reality is that you are in denial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

The reality is how many students transfer to other schools because of IB. The reality IS the low number of IB diplomas when AP, less expensive, could do the a la carte job better. The reality is that you are in denial.

I don’t agree AP does the a la carte job better, and I say that with very long-term, direct experience with both courses.

But I’m not campaigning to take away something from you. You, however, are clearly campaigning to take away a program that has benefited many.

And since the only metric you care about (the diploma) means you are blind to the many other benefits of the program, then I suspect we are done here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

The reality is how many students transfer to other schools because of IB. The reality IS the low number of IB diplomas when AP, less expensive, could do the a la carte job better. The reality is that you are in denial.

I don’t agree AP does the a la carte job better, and I say that with very long-term, direct experience with both courses.

But I’m not campaigning to take away something from you. You, however, are clearly campaigning to take away a program that has benefited many.

And since the only metric you care about (the diploma) means you are blind to the many other benefits of the program, then I suspect we are done here.

You are in that small percentage that prevents FCPS from moving on from IB, particularly at the schools where statistics clearly indicate it is time to drop it. You fail to see that the experiment has failed. But FCPS is a sad shadow of its former self, with an increasing number of pyramids being avoided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

The reality is how many students transfer to other schools because of IB. The reality IS the low number of IB diplomas when AP, less expensive, could do the a la carte job better. The reality is that you are in denial.

I don’t agree AP does the a la carte job better, and I say that with very long-term, direct experience with both courses.

But I’m not campaigning to take away something from you. You, however, are clearly campaigning to take away a program that has benefited many.

And since the only metric you care about (the diploma) means you are blind to the many other benefits of the program, then I suspect we are done here.

This program may be good, but it is causing more problems than it is solving.
1. It is used as an excuse (both in and out of IB) for pupil placement which turns some schools topsy turvy.
2. It is way underutilized in most of the IB schools.
3. While the "end all" may not be the diploma, it is an indicator of how it is viewed.
4. It is more expensive.
5. Many parents of kids in IB schools would prefer AP. I believe if a survey were done it would be a majority of parents in IB schools would prefer AP. Except, perhaps, those who are pupil placing for it. (See 164 kids from one high school transferring to a neighboring school.) FCPS is claiming the losing school is underenrolled. 164 students would make a big difference in that school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

The reality is how many students transfer to other schools because of IB. The reality IS the low number of IB diplomas when AP, less expensive, could do the a la carte job better. The reality is that you are in denial.

I don’t agree AP does the a la carte job better, and I say that with very long-term, direct experience with both courses.

But I’m not campaigning to take away something from you. You, however, are clearly campaigning to take away a program that has benefited many.

And since the only metric you care about (the diploma) means you are blind to the many other benefits of the program, then I suspect we are done here.

I have experience with both an IB and an AP high school in FCPS and the overall academic atmosphere at the AP high school was far superior.

I would not be averse to having a single IB high school where every student commits to doing the full IB diploma program, and is treated with respect by the staff and held to high expectations. That is how some IB schools operate, but it’s not the current model in FCPS.

If that’s not feasible, yet FCPS still plans to redistrict, it should replace IB with AP. That would cost less and align with the “equitable access to programming” goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand these arguments at all. IB is a fabulous program that is way better than the BS standard education out there. Look at FCCPS they are one of the top programs in the country and run the program from K to 12

Whatever. FCPS is so large in school and student count that it can run statistically valid studies. Net TJ transfers out run at about 3% on hotly contested AP schools for boundaries. No IB site is under 5% and Edison has to be discarded due to the STEM full time transfer.

If there was a strong preference IB would have gone in at Woodson, Langley, flagship TJ, Oakton, etc. Madison to Marshall and Lake Braddock to Robinson would at minimum have flipped on AP to IB or quadrupled to incoming for IB.

FCPS put IB into Mount Vernon first as a school wide improvement to boost instructional leadership, academics, etc. Some IB sites are now approaching DC publics on massive movement to charter schools. Loudoun will have 2 IB HS- applications and hub bus transport.

[Anonymous]

Whatever. FCPS is so large in school and student count that it can run statistically valid studies. Net TJ transfers out run at about 3% on hotly contested AP schools for boundaries. No IB site is under 5% and Edison has to be discarded due to the STEM full time transfer.

Don't know what stat you used for TJ transfers, but you should definitely use the stats from before they changed the rules for admission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do they think there are no assessments in AP classes?

Yes.

No assessments, no writing, no critical thinking, only a narrow viewpoint.



The anti AP/pro IB posts are kinda funny

So are the pro AP/anti-IB. Every time an IB parent posts something positive about the program-it’s you are a fake/you were part of the IBO org or you are ignorant and don’t know any better. I feel like the pro-AP parents are a lot more antagonistic than the other way around in this forum. It’s weird bc in other places, there isn’t such a strong anti-IB sentiment. And re-read some of responses; just because parents are saying IB is/was a good program for their kids, they are not saying AP is bad.

That’s the same vibe I see here.

The anti-IB crowd seems angry and resentful, calling to cut a program that has been great for many.

I don’t actually see an anti-AP crowd here at all. Pro-IB posters have simply argued for the program.

But IB has not been great for "many". Just a small percentage that are holding schools hostage. Or the parents who are using the existence of two different curriculums to flee poorer schools.

Well, it has been great for many. I posted above (the IB teacher for 15 years).

If you are stuck on the diploma as your only measure of achievement, then perhaps you don’t see that. But some of us see the value of the individual courses and have personally witnessed hundreds of students succeed.

You have an ax to grind. Fine. But your perception doesn’t erase my reality.

If IB created better learners, then the IB schools would be the top of FCPS.