Pool size for TPMS and Eastern lotteries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any idea on when results for the tests might be known? DD took the test last year. Did they send it in some email, and I missed it?

Which tests? The one used for these lotteries is the MAP. Fall MAP scores are under "Documents" in ParentVue if you haven't seen the report yet. They don't come home on paper: the one that does is the MCAP, which isn't used for the middle-school programs.

Looking through the email list I thought it was CogAT. We did another in spring of last year, where we were given results on a piece of paper. I'll check in ParentVue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any idea on when results for the tests might be known? DD took the test last year. Did they send it in some email, and I missed it?

Which tests? The one used for these lotteries is the MAP. Fall MAP scores are under "Documents" in ParentVue if you haven't seen the report yet. They don't come home on paper: the one that does is the MCAP, which isn't used for the middle-school programs.

Looking through the email list I thought it was CogAT. We did another in spring of last year, where we were given results on a piece of paper. I'll check in ParentVue.

CogAT is not used for admissions. Only MAP.

[Anonymous]

CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

You had me until your last sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your home MS school is very good AND you have the time and money to offer academic enrichment experiences outside of school, it’s probably not worth taking a spot at Eastern.

This is where we landed this past year. Plus our son doesn't love humanities, he strongly prefers math and sciences. I also think personality wise he is better off in his home MS (and seems to be happy there this year). He does well in school but he also really loves sports and Eastern is just that much further from practices etc. I'd rather the seat go to a kid who would thrive in a humanities magnet.

He should stay at his home school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your home MS school is very good AND you have the time and money to offer academic enrichment experiences outside of school, it’s probably not worth taking a spot at Eastern.

We never got in off the waitlist, but we have been good with our home middle school and hiring a tutor to supplement in ELA for literature and writing. But it is irritating that that is needed. They really should be offering an advanced English class that is actually advanced, rather than making it on level and shoving everyone in there.

Have you asked your MS why they don’t offer an advanced English class that is actually advanced? See what the teachers and most importantly the APs and Principal have to say.

You’d need to ask Central Office because a course like that has not been created. The advanced courses in English and SS were designed to introduce on-grade level and above students to more in depth skills and challenging texts. In other words, the student doesn’t need to be advanced to do well in the advanced course. They just need to not be below grade level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

You had me until your last sentence.

DP. Thought that was a typo, and that they meant that “it doesn’t make sense why MCPS switched.” Otherwise it is a weird post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

You had me until your last sentence.

DP. Thought that was a typo, and that they meant that “it doesn’t make sense why MCPS switched.” Otherwise it is a weird post.

I took PP to mean "switched" back to CogAT, potentially not knowing that it used to be the norm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

You had me until your last sentence.

DP. Thought that was a typo, and that they meant that “it doesn’t make sense why MCPS switched.” Otherwise it is a weird post.

I took PP to mean "switched" back to CogAT, potentially not knowing that it used to be the norm.

Lol. It’s funny there are so many interpretations. But MCPS did not switch back to CogAT. Right now it’s just another measure MCPS reinstated for GT identification, which is not what this thread is about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

You had me until your last sentence.

DP. Thought that was a typo, and that they meant that “it doesn’t make sense why MCPS switched.” Otherwise it is a weird post.

I took PP to mean "switched" back to CogAT, potentially not knowing that it used to be the norm.

Lol. It’s funny there are so many interpretations. But MCPS did not switch back to CogAT. Right now it’s just another measure MCPS reinstated for GT identification, which is not what this thread is about.

I don't see why they clearly stated, in the document we signed to opt in:

"Dear Third Grade Families,
As part of the Universal Screening of second and third graders for Gifted and Talented(GT) Identification and
to help inform your child’s teacher about how your student learns, your child will take the Cognitive Abilities
Test(CogAT)."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CogAT is race-neutral, language-neutral intelligence test that can qualify a child for Mensa. MAP is just an indicator of what grade level you're at, so can be gamed with after-school tutoring or folks with high incomes. It makes sense why MCPS switched.

You had me until your last sentence.

DP. Thought that was a typo, and that they meant that “it doesn’t make sense why MCPS switched.” Otherwise it is a weird post.

I took PP to mean "switched" back to CogAT, potentially not knowing that it used to be the norm.

Lol. It’s funny there are so many interpretations. But MCPS did not switch back to CogAT. Right now it’s just another measure MCPS reinstated for GT identification, which is not what this thread is about.

I don't see why they clearly stated, in the document we signed to opt in:

"Dear Third Grade Families,
As part of the Universal Screening of second and third graders for Gifted and Talented(GT) Identification and
to help inform your child’s teacher about how your student learns, your child will take the Cognitive Abilities
Test(CogAT)."

The confusion here is reasonable because again families are confusing the gifted and talented identification process with qualification to get into the magnet lotteries. As ridiculous as it sounds if this is your first time hearing this, the gifted and talented identification process has no relationship to placement in a magnet which is a wholly different process. Gifted and talented labels are a pointless exercise mandated by the state that makes no difference to your kid whether they are or are not identified as such. The magnet lottery process does not involve COGAT but used to before the pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Correct, the CogAT has no bearing on whether your child will be placed in the CES lottery. They are continuing to use the locally normed MAP score instead.

[Anonymous]

That's the nature of lotteries. They're random.

You'd think, yes. And the PP should take heed that those differences year to year are natural results of probabilistic randomness across independent lotteries.

Then again, the "lottery luck" of certain families across elementary Centers for Enriched Studies and criteria-based magnet middle schools, along with the then-higher likelihood of selection to HS magnet programs strains credulity. Not impossible, but...

DCCAPS uses a third party to conduct the lotteries. One can hope that there are oversight mechanisms in place, but neither that nor transparency have been MCPS's strong suit to this point.

We went through this process last year. Every child in 5th grade we knew who had a current sibling in the TPMS magnet got in (4/4). The probability of this happening by chance is very, VERY low. It just made us question how random the lottery really is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That's the nature of lotteries. They're random.

You'd think, yes. And the PP should take heed that those differences year to year are natural results of probabilistic randomness across independent lotteries.

Then again, the "lottery luck" of certain families across elementary Centers for Enriched Studies and criteria-based magnet middle schools, along with the then-higher likelihood of selection to HS magnet programs strains credulity. Not impossible, but...

DCCAPS uses a third party to conduct the lotteries. One can hope that there are oversight mechanisms in place, but neither that nor transparency have been MCPS's strong suit to this point.

We went through this process last year. Every child in 5th grade we knew who had a current sibling in the TPMS magnet got in (4/4). The probability of this happening by chance is very, VERY low. It just made us question how random the lottery really is.

This anecdotal experience, as repeated elsewhere, is the basis of the concern. When there are such examples in numbers, it is reasonable to ask, "Who watches the watchers?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That's the nature of lotteries. They're random.

You'd think, yes. And the PP should take heed that those differences year to year are natural results of probabilistic randomness across independent lotteries.

Then again, the "lottery luck" of certain families across elementary Centers for Enriched Studies and criteria-based magnet middle schools, along with the then-higher likelihood of selection to HS magnet programs strains credulity. Not impossible, but...

DCCAPS uses a third party to conduct the lotteries. One can hope that there are oversight mechanisms in place, but neither that nor transparency have been MCPS's strong suit to this point.

We went through this process last year. Every child in 5th grade we knew who had a current sibling in the TPMS magnet got in (4/4). The probability of this happening by chance is very, VERY low. It just made us question how random the lottery really is.

This anecdotal experience, as repeated elsewhere, is the basis of the concern. When there are such examples in numbers, it is reasonable to ask, "Who watches the watchers?"

Agree. MCPS isn't transparent about any of this.