Pool size for TPMS and Eastern lotteries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

So? It’s not 100 percent. That requirement will reduce the number of people in the pool so that it’s less than the top 15 percent.

The "so" is that most people in high performing schools who score well enough to get into the lottery are going to get straight As. Also, anyone who has an IEP, 504 plan, gets FARMs, or is ELL has a lower cutoff of 75%. So it's definitely more than 15% who are getting into the pool.

[Anonymous]

This old post from 2022 says "Eastern and TPMS hit rates from the lottery are extremely low (last year it was under 2% in each program, from the stats that were recently circulated by MCPS; I didn't see anything in the last several years higher than 3%)"... that can't be right, can it? Even if there were 2000 kids in the pool (and there's almost certainly less), 2% would be 40 kids but there's over 100 spots, right? Does anyone know what stats the poster is talking about?

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1084715.page#23470717

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

Yes it is true and it happens more often than PPs seem to think it does. Sometimes it's just a couple of bad test days, sometimes it's inattention to details, and sometimes it is a bright kid not applying themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

Yes it is true and it happens more often than PPs seem to think it does. Sometimes it's just a couple of bad test days, sometimes it's inattention to details, and sometimes it is a bright kid not applying themselves.

+1 It’s true. Science in ES has very few grades. You get a teacher who makes 2 of 9 assignments group projects and your kid gets stuck in a group with kids who don’t contribute and gives everyone in the group the same grade and voila, you have one 89.4 in the single marking period that they care about and all your As and 99th percentile MAPs don’t matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

So? It’s not 100 percent. That requirement will reduce the number of people in the pool so that it’s less than the top 15 percent.

The "so" is that most people in high performing schools who score well enough to get into the lottery are going to get straight As. Also, anyone who has an IEP, 504 plan, gets FARMs, or is ELL has a lower cutoff of 75%. So it's definitely more than 15% who are getting into the pool.

Not true. Even just using common sense it’s clear that not all kids who score high in standardized tests also always work hard in school. You can do well in tests and not do your work in class for example. And DCUM consistently overestimates the amount that kids get all As.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

Why would this impact grade inflation? The ES teachers don’t care who gets accepted to CES so have no reason to align grades as such. And if there was someone that they felt really needed a different program to thrive they would just bring that child up with their principal/gifted liaison/counselor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

Why would this impact grade inflation? The ES teachers don’t care who gets accepted to CES so have no reason to align grades as such. And if there was someone that they felt really needed a different program to thrive they would just bring that child up with their principal/gifted liaison/counselor.

It doesn't work that way. No recommendation from your principal/gifted liaison (what the f is that?) or counselor is going to help a kid who does not meet the mathematical cut offs make the lottery much less get an invite to the program.
I saw you on other threads and you really don't know anything so just stop posting. Read but don't post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

Yes it is true and it happens more often than PPs seem to think it does. Sometimes it's just a couple of bad test days, sometimes it's inattention to details, and sometimes it is a bright kid not applying themselves.

+1 It’s true. Science in ES has very few grades. You get a teacher who makes 2 of 9 assignments group projects and your kid gets stuck in a group with kids who don’t contribute and gives everyone in the group the same grade and voila, you have one 89.4 in the single marking period that they care about and all your As and 99th percentile MAPs don’t matter.

Oof. Is it grades from all years in ES or just 4th and 5th? Does 5th even count? Thanks for the info.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not just the top 15 percent. They also have to have had all As in the prior year.

That is not hard to do, particularly in ES.

Disagree with you about it being so easy to get straight As in ES. My DC was admitted to TPMS a few years before the lottery system was implemented, with a B in their 5th grade science class. It was a class that met only twice a week, and where the teacher basically just gave them some materials and said ‘do something with this.’ The teacher themself told me that a third of the class got a B, and this was at a CES. There is nothing wrong my DC’s science abilities. They got straight As all the way through at TPMS. I thank god every damn day that they were considered for TPMS under the old system, and feel terrible for kids under the current lottery system, who get knocked out if the lottery pool for getting a B in math or science, regardless of their other qualifications.

Yeah. My kids are a bit younger so I’m reading this out of curiosity, but I’m appalled if it’s really true that a single B would knock you out of contention? Also, wouldn’t that just make grade inflation worse if a teacher knows (and parents know) that the kids have to get straight As to be considered?

Why would this impact grade inflation? The ES teachers don’t care who gets accepted to CES so have no reason to align grades as such. And if there was someone that they felt really needed a different program to thrive they would just bring that child up with their principal/gifted liaison/counselor.

I mean, just from personal experience this is one of the reasons grade inflation is an issue at colleges and universities.

[Anonymous]

So, from a report to the BOE related to the 2023 identification for the incoming 2023-24 class (latest found/may not be latest available -- https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/CV6T2P754843/$file/230816%20FY2023%20Update%20CES%20Sec%20Prog%20Admission%20Results%20BD.pdf ), the pools were:

Clemente (Math/Science/CS)
King (Humanities)

[Anonymous]

So, from a report to the BOE related to the 2023 identification for the incoming 2023-24 class (latest found/may not be latest available -- https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/CV6T2P754843/$file/230816%20FY2023%20Update%20CES%20Sec%20Prog%20Admission%20Results%20BD.pdf ), the pools were:

Clemente (Math/Science/CS) 571/4122 ~ 13.9%
King (Humanities) 440/4122 ~ 10.7%

TPMS (Math/Science/CS) 1249/7693 ~ 16.2%
Eastern (Humanities) 1096/7692 ~ 14.2%

Slight changes to the selection paradigms and underlying population profiles may have altered these percentages for the incoming class this year. They won't have numbers for the current evaluation until it is complete.

[Anonymous]

^^ Those numbers were for those centrally identified for math or humanities enrichment, which effectively defines the criteria-based lottery pool (with minor differences, perhaps, due to appeals and the like).

[Anonymous]

I have always been told that what is at stake is the 1st quarter grade of the 5th grade year. DC's teacher just also said to us recently that it is the main grade in the subject that is considered (not the subgrades). Has anyone else heard the same or different?

[Anonymous]

^^^

Typo. s/b

Eastern (Humanities) 1096/7693 ~ 14.2%

(same overall pool of students considered as for TPMS)