At what point is a teen "spoiling the nest" (before college) going too far?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

DP here, come back in 6 years :)
Seriously, it is a normal phase. Young adults are establishing independence and no longer want to follow childhood rules. What they don't understand is that if they are not financially independent and living on their own, they don't get to do whatever they want if it disrupts the running of the household.
And that adults living at home absolutely need to help out.

But they need to do those things in any household, not just because they are financially dependent. That’s the point.

It's very possible that you have parented your 12 year old so well that when they are 18 you won't be going through this. Or maybe not. Time will tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing works because they know you're full of shit. You're obviously not going to not pay for their college, they have you by the balls.

Bs she can take away car privileges, phone privileges, she can be grounded. Many possible consequences. So what if that causes her to lose her job? That job is meaningless.

Take away their car, okay, then their friends will pick them up.

Take away their phone, okay, they can go buy their own and you have no ability to track it and they can ignore all your calls and texts.

You can not control an a-hole 18 year old rising college freshman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

DP here, come back in 6 years :)
Seriously, it is a normal phase. Young adults are establishing independence and no longer want to follow childhood rules. What they don't understand is that if they are not financially independent and living on their own, they don't get to do whatever they want if it disrupts the running of the household.
And that adults living at home absolutely need to help out.

But they need to do those things in any household, not just because they are financially dependent. That’s the point.

It's very possible that you have parented your 12 year old so well that when they are 18 you won't be going through this. Or maybe not. Time will tell.

The problem is these threads get clueless people who don't have kids or parents who have young tweens who think their advice is applicable to 18 year old adult kids. You can't control an 18 year old who seeks to do what they want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have a conversation with her and set some boundaries for communication and respect.

Tie her gas/fun money and expenses to her following through to commitments.

Tell her you don't want to get to a place where you cut her off at 18 and instead only invest in her kinder and more respectful siblings.

Threatening to cut a kid off to get them to do more chores is a horrible way to parent.

I wouldn't threaten to cut off everything. But in our house, having a car (and the insurance and gas and maintenance for it) is a privilege and it comes with responsibilities, such as running errands if Mom/Dad need it, driving siblings as needed and a few other things. If you don't want to have the responsibilities you don't get the privileges. Quite simple.

Sort of the same way if you keep sleeping in and missing the bus in MS/HS, you walk to school. If Mom has to drive you, you loose some privilege. (this is after mom has made a valiant effort to wake kid up and get them moving as well). It's called parenting. So that you don't end up with an obnoxious brat as a teen/college student and beyond. Kids need to learn there are consequences for their actions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is at his wit's end with her. Our daughter is being belligerent, defiant, comes and goes as she pleases, doesn't lift a finger all summer, refuses to contribute and pick up her young siblings from activities (in a car/gas/insurance we pay for), and her room is a disaster zone. So after 10 weeks of being treated like garbage by her we're supposed to smile and nod and write a $38,000 check and tell her 'have fun sweetie'?

Why dies she have a car or a phone?
You are the problem

Are you asking why she is allowed to have a life and operate as a real human being? Do you think the ideal upbringing is holding your children like prisoners?

I think they are asking why parents are paying for the phone and car if she is not following the rules. Being adult means more freedoms, but it also means you are responsible for your actions. Actions have consequences

[Anonymous]

This should be a handbook on how to be passive aggressive and controlling parents

[Anonymous]

If she has a job and is saving good money, why does she get an allowance. If she's working, she. should be learning the value of money by having to spend her money on her "fun" expenses. When my children got jobs, we provided needs, but they took care of all of their wants. It she is heading to college, expect that her room will be clean when she leaves. IF she has way too many things, it's hard to keep it organized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

Of course, but newly minted “adults” often have all sorts of opinions on what that means and sometimes it’s helpful to chat about expectations proactively to make sure you’re all on the same page.

I think parenting through the teen years is less tidy than it sounds like you’re currently experiencing and I think my firstborn was relatively easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

DP here, come back in 6 years :)
Seriously, it is a normal phase. Young adults are establishing independence and no longer want to follow childhood rules. What they don't understand is that if they are not financially independent and living on their own, they don't get to do whatever they want if it disrupts the running of the household.
And that adults living at home absolutely need to help out.

But they need to do those things in any household, not just because they are financially dependent. That’s the point.

It's very possible that you have parented your 12 year old so well that when they are 18 you won't be going through this. Or maybe not. Time will tell.

Ha no, I expect to have very different issues. In fact, if I was OP I’d be absolutely thrilled to have a kid who appears to be very successfully launching. But yeah, I do expect to have a mostlh respectful kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

DP here, come back in 6 years :)
Seriously, it is a normal phase. Young adults are establishing independence and no longer want to follow childhood rules. What they don't understand is that if they are not financially independent and living on their own, they don't get to do whatever they want if it disrupts the running of the household.
And that adults living at home absolutely need to help out.

But they need to do those things in any household, not just because they are financially dependent. That’s the point.

It's very possible that you have parented your 12 year old so well that when they are 18 you won't be going through this. Or maybe not. Time will tell.

The problem is these threads get clueless people who don't have kids or parents who have young tweens who think their advice is applicable to 18 year old adult kids. You can't control an 18 year old who seeks to do what they want.

I’m the one who has a 12 year old. The point is I don’t think or aim to control him. The end goal is to teach him how to be a civilized person living in society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such BS. The point is now, or a long time ago. There may be something to the "spoiling the nest" phenomenon in terms of it being common, but that doesn't mean it's inevitable or acceptable. You still PARENt for God's sake.

Crack down NOW.

Take the car away immediately if she is not willing to help the family with it.

Absolutely no money give to her for anything but tuition and room and board.

Tell her if she doesn't clean up her room, you all will go in and clean it for her and change her an hourly rate. I am not kidding. If she can't keep it clean, no privacy.

Also, if you're paying for her phone and own the phone, tell her that is next. She can feel whatever she wants to feel but that is not license to treat you like dirt. The free ride stops now.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

DP here, come back in 6 years :)
Seriously, it is a normal phase. Young adults are establishing independence and no longer want to follow childhood rules. What they don't understand is that if they are not financially independent and living on their own, they don't get to do whatever they want if it disrupts the running of the household.
And that adults living at home absolutely need to help out.

But they need to do those things in any household, not just because they are financially dependent. That’s the point.

It's very possible that you have parented your 12 year old so well that when they are 18 you won't be going through this. Or maybe not. Time will tell.

The problem is these threads get clueless people who don't have kids or parents who have young tweens who think their advice is applicable to 18 year old adult kids. You can't control an 18 year old who seeks to do what they want.

I’m the one who has a 12 year old. The point is I don’t think or aim to control him. The end goal is to teach him how to be a civilized person living in society.

Well, sure, but many teens have different desires and conceptions than you on that that are also generally in flux and subject to a wide range of influences. In my experience, 10-12 year olds are often at the golden age of reasonableness--competent enough to function fairly independently with common sense, yet relatively amenable to their parents' conceptions of the world. And it's like they have been steadily growing toward this over the years so you think it's just going to keep on going that way. But parenting of teens takes a new kind of deftness in the skills it sounds like you have already acquired. Try to control too much and it backfires and they become secretive and sneaky and get into trouble or become stunted in their development out of fear; be too loose and they treat you like a doormat and get into trouble because you haven't set enough boundaries. My kids and their friends were all "good kids," but all of us parents were still doing much more of a dance between our teens' conceptions/desires for independence and our ideas about what it means to be a decent, civilized person--all of this in a changing social world where teens have the perspectives of godzillions of others on the internet to counter your worldview. You have to figure out a way to still achieve your goal of parenting a decent human, but it's not as straightforward as when they were younger--and maybe not as straightforward as pre-internet/mobile devices when parents' decisions on where to live, school, outside activities, media access in the home all exerted more natural boundaries on the perspectives your kids would be interacting with.

[Anonymous]

This is disrespectful to you and not sustainable for her.
Set rules for the next 10 weeks, and expectations. I’d charge her for car and insurance payment and she can get some of that back with good behavior. Like $10 offfor each ride for siblings and $2 for each chore done well. Do this asap. She certainly can’t act like this in college or in future relationships.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are living this right now as well.
Rules we have put in place.
If she can't pick up sibling such that I need to do it, there is no using the car that day.
If clothes are not put away, we do not "give back" clean clothes that somehow found the way into the hall hamper.
We sat down and spoke about financial expectations - my DD decided not to work this summer - fine - we are not providing spending $ beyond the small allowance that she has always had. Not giving money for gifts for friends birthday gifts, starbucks habit etc.
When she decided not to get a job, I wrote on a piece of paper the agreement and she signed it. Is is taped up on the wall so we are all on the same page.

She has a job at the country club and saves every cent. She has a lot of money for her age in the bank. And she constantly picks up shifts to make more money. It's also a convenient excuse for everything. I can't do ___, gotta work. Sorry I didn't do ___, so tired from work.

If we consider punishing her, we get guilt tripped that she had good grades and has a job and we don't know how lucky we are. Other parents often tell us this. Can't win.

So she loses her job because you take her car or she buys her own. It’s very simple, you just make it hard.

You got to move out of the "punishing" mindset. Technically she's now an adult, your fiscal responsibilities to her are over and she is equally free to move out on her own and never listen or talk to you again. Everything now is on different terms than when she was a child. You've got to figure out together what her role in your household is going to be--have a discussion about that--what are you going to provide (and lay on the table all that you are providing--food, shelter, utilities, college, any services like cooking, cleaning, etc.) and what is she going to contribute. If you are relying on her to pick up her siblings, she can't pick up an extra shift at work during that time. If she does, she calls and pays for an uber for them. At the same time if her job is dependent on working certain hours, it may be unreasonable to expect her to pick them up. The point isn't to punish--the point is to get her to see she's now an adult with responsibilities and you aren't her doormat in perpetuity. Write this all down.

You aren't "lucky" that she's saving up money for herself or getting good grades--those are for herself, not you. None of this has anything to do with your love of her, your pride for her, your happiness in her successes, your concern for her well-being, your excitement for her future etc. All those can --and should--be continually expressed while still insisting on a respectful, reciprocal relationship from another adult--albeit--your newly adult child-- in your home.

This (minus the asking them to pay for an Uber for a sibling). You should sit down and talk with her. It's time to reframe your relationship. Our oldest is a rising sophomore and I teed up a similar conversation last summer by telling him that the time for his dad and I to parent him in the traditional sense was over - but by living in our home, he had responsibilties and we had expectation of him as a part of our family.

At the minimum you pick up after yourself in any common area, be a considerate and respectful housemate, and shoot us a text if you're staying out all night (DH and I would never do that to our kids or one another) but we sort of had a soft curfew last summer that we dropped once he came back for winter break.

Has it been perfect, no, but we were able to lean on that conversation as a bench mark for how "adults" behave.

But hadn’t you already been requiring him to be a considerate housemate? That’s what confuses me. Granted my kid is only 12, but I have a very low tolerance for behavior that disturbs the household (making a lot of noise at night, making messes, not helping with chores when asked, speaking rudely.) He’s far from perfect but my end goal is for him to understand he’s part of a household, so he takes that with him when he’s an adult.

DP here, come back in 6 years
Seriously, it is a normal phase. Young adults are establishing independence and no longer want to follow childhood rules. What they don't understand is that if they are not financially independent and living on their own, they don't get to do whatever they want if it disrupts the running of the household.
And that adults living at home absolutely need to help out.

But they need to do those things in any household, not just because they are financially dependent. That’s the point.

It's very possible that you have parented your 12 year old so well that when they are 18 you won't be going through this. Or maybe not. Time will tell.

The problem is these threads get clueless people who don't have kids or parents who have young tweens who think their advice is applicable to 18 year old adult kids. You can't control an 18 year old who seeks to do what they want.

I’m the one who has a 12 year old. The point is I don’t think or aim to control him. The end goal is to teach him how to be a civilized person living in society.

Well, sure, but many teens have different desires and conceptions than you on that that are also generally in flux and subject to a wide range of influences. In my experience, 10-12 year olds are often at the golden age of reasonableness--competent enough to function fairly independently with common sense, yet relatively amenable to their parents' conceptions of the world. And it's like they have been steadily growing toward this over the years so you think it's just going to keep on going that way. But parenting of teens takes a new kind of deftness in the skills it sounds like you have already acquired. Try to control too much and it backfires and they become secretive and sneaky and get into trouble or become stunted in their development out of fear; be too loose and they treat you like a doormat and get into trouble because you haven't set enough boundaries. My kids and their friends were all "good kids," but all of us parents were still doing much more of a dance between our teens' conceptions/desires for independence and our ideas about what it means to be a decent, civilized person--all of this in a changing social world where teens have the perspectives of godzillions of others on the internet to counter your worldview. You have to figure out a way to still achieve your goal of parenting a decent human, but it's not as straightforward as when they were younger--and maybe not as straightforward as pre-internet/mobile devices when parents' decisions on where to live, school, outside activities, media access in the home all exerted more natural boundaries on the perspectives your kids would be interacting with.

Very well said. I have found the teen years to be the absolute hardest. Big kids, big problems.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Nothing works because they know you're full of shit. You're obviously not going to not pay for their college, they have you by the balls.

That’s why you need to stop with the ridiculous threats and random meltdowns. It’s just like parents who cannot discipline their 4 year olds. You’re paying for college because that’s part of the modern obligation to kids, barring them failing out or something truly awful. College support is not a bargaining chip to get other things out of your kid. If you want them to follow household rules or pitch in, it’s because they are part of the household, not because you’re paying for college. So you need to come to that agreement in a different way.

“Modern obligation”? No. JD Vance joined the military for free college. Millions of kids do. Parents don’t have to pay for college. I’d argue millions of parents who do shouldn’t. Way too many immature spoiled brats who aren’t even prepared for college getting a free ticket to go have a four year long spring break.