Jennifer Crumbley found guilty. Hope this opens the door for prosecuting parents for their children's violent crimes.

[Anonymous]

Suggest that anyone who is interested in understanding the families of school shooters, plus mental health, take some time to read this article:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/04/what-happens-to-a-school-shooters-sister

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many differences between Ethan Crumbley and Adam Lanza.

Adam Lanza was an adult whose had one estranged parent and one parent who was very aware of his mental health problems and tried to get him help. But because he was a legal adult, she had no way to force him to accept help. Adam Lanza's parents did not provide him with a gun, but he stole the gun from his mother.

Ethan Crumbley is a minor who had two parents who were present but ignored his issues. He had mental health issues for years, tried to make his parents aware and they ignored his pleas for help. They just called his hallucinations "joking" and poo-pooed his requests for help. They did not communicate with school about issues with him. They knew that he was a solitary troubled kid whose only friend had moved away, their family pet died. And rather than spend more time and attention on him to ensure that he was okay, the spent less time on him and more time on their own personal lives. The mother spent more time on her swinging lifestyle and her horses than she spent on him. These parents decided when he was in elementary school that they didn't need to parent or care for him and would leave him alone while they would go out drinking, leaving him for hours enough that a neighbor called CPS On them multiple times for child neglect. And then they purchased this solitary, lonely, depressed child a gun and then failed to secure it. One would think they would be more attentive under the circumstances, but they were less.

There is a huge difference in how Nancy Lanza parented and how Jennifer Crumbley parented. Nancy Lanza's situation was tragic. Jennifer Crumbley's situation was criminal.

DP here. Lanza's mom also downplayed and covered up for his behavior, making excuses instead of getting him committed. When your kid (adult or not) refuses to come out of his room, puts garbage bags over the windows, and all the other stuff that Lanza was doing - you get them committed and you get a plan in place. How much denial before he goes and kills all those innocent babies? My God. I know kids like this (not in my family), and honestly, I wonder who is next.

Let me assure you, as a former prosecutor who handled hundreds of involuntary commitments over the years of my career and studied the literature extensively, that Adam Lanza's behavior prior to the massacre at Sandy Hook would most likely not have met the standard for involuntary commitment to a psychiatric facility. There is a very small possibility that a judge would have seen his anorexia as posing a danger to himself (not others) and signed a commitment order, but those orders expire very quickly and since anorexia is very treatment resistant (the highest mortality rate of any mental illness), he might have been forcibly medicated for a couple of weeks then sent home angrier than he was before.

You simply do not understand how profoundly broken our mental health system is.

PP, TY for coming on here in your former professional capacity and discussing this situation. Too many posters here sadly do not grasp how profoundly broken our mental health system is and how strung out and burned out many parents and caregivers are in these circumstances. I don't think, however, that the Crumbleys fall in that category. They seem emotionally and mentally stunted and failed their son in so many ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many differences between Ethan Crumbley and Adam Lanza.

Adam Lanza was an adult whose had one estranged parent and one parent who was very aware of his mental health problems and tried to get him help. But because he was a legal adult, she had no way to force him to accept help. Adam Lanza's parents did not provide him with a gun, but he stole the gun from his mother.

Ethan Crumbley is a minor who had two parents who were present but ignored his issues. He had mental health issues for years, tried to make his parents aware and they ignored his pleas for help. They just called his hallucinations "joking" and poo-pooed his requests for help. They did not communicate with school about issues with him. They knew that he was a solitary troubled kid whose only friend had moved away, their family pet died. And rather than spend more time and attention on him to ensure that he was okay, the spent less time on him and more time on their own personal lives. The mother spent more time on her swinging lifestyle and her horses than she spent on him. These parents decided when he was in elementary school that they didn't need to parent or care for him and would leave him alone while they would go out drinking, leaving him for hours enough that a neighbor called CPS On them multiple times for child neglect. And then they purchased this solitary, lonely, depressed child a gun and then failed to secure it. One would think they would be more attentive under the circumstances, but they were less.

There is a huge difference in how Nancy Lanza parented and how Jennifer Crumbley parented. Nancy Lanza's situation was tragic. Jennifer Crumbley's situation was criminal.

DP here. Lanza's mom also downplayed and covered up for his behavior, making excuses instead of getting him committed. When your kid (adult or not) refuses to come out of his room, puts garbage bags over the windows, and all the other stuff that Lanza was doing - you get them committed and you get a plan in place. How much denial before he goes and kills all those innocent babies? My God. I know kids like this (not in my family), and honestly, I wonder who is next.

It doesn't work that way. You can't just "get them committed." They are adults with rights (more rights than their potential and actual victims!) Refusing to come out of your own room is not illegal. Putting garbage bags on windows is not illegal. Authorities can't arrest/commit someone who hasn't actually done anything harmful or illegal.

Agree with all you wrote. It's also true that Nancy Lanza and her ex husband (Adam's dad) did not do all that was needed for a child and then adult child with such significant mental health issues. At the very least, she shouldn't have provided access to so many guns (unlocked gun safe, multiple guns and swords) and gun training and then leave him alone at home. Unbelievably irresponsible.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-police-found-in-adam-lanzas-home/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now I hope the dad is held to the same standard as mom.

Parents should absolutely be held accountable for their children’s behavior/gun access.

I’m going to be LIVID if the mom is convicted and the dad is acquitted. I despise the double standard our society holds for moms vs dads, and I think some of Mrs. Crumbley’s case (the way the prosecution painted her as more concerned about an affair than her kid, for example) would NEVER have been used against a dad in the same way.

The dad bought the gun - I actually think he’s more liable than the mom. The mom wasn’t great, and she messed up big time, but so did dad and I just have a feeling he’s going to be let off. I hope I’m wrong.

This is unlikely. One of the reasons that the Crumbleys asked for separate trials is because they assumed it would be much easier to get the mother acquitted than the father.

The father bought the gun and was responsible for gun safety. He was also there at the school meeting and he also said he had to go back to work, but he worked in an office that had very flexible work commitments. He had even less reason to "need to go back to work" than the mother. He was the one who withdrew $6000 cash and found the friend who hid them in the closed office where they were found. He was the mastermind of the flight from detention. He did many more wrong things than his wife did and so his conviction was considered much more likely.

That said, I think it is much more likely he'll be convicted. But the female bias may come in during the sentencing if they get equal sentencing or she gets a heavier sentence than he does, even though he deserves at least as long a sentence as she gets, probably much longer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now I hope the dad is held to the same standard as mom.

Parents should absolutely be held accountable for their children’s behavior/gun access.

I honestly believe this verdict will save lives. Because of this, at least a few parents of troubled teenage boys will get rid of the guns they keep in their house, or will be extra vigilant about keeping their guns locked and secured, or will simply choose to *not* buy or provide guns for them under any circumstances. It’s sad that this is what it takes, but some future shootings will be averted.

Doubtful.

Ethan Crumbley had a serious mental illness. Where did it come from?
At least one of his parents probably also did, and the other married someone who did.

The law is written around the assumption of "reasonable person". A substantial portion of the population does not meet that cognitive standard (and several prominent politicians succeed by catering to this cohort ) and most likely the Crumbley parents are in that cohort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now I hope the dad is held to the same standard as mom.

Parents should absolutely be held accountable for their children’s behavior/gun access.

I’m going to be LIVID if the mom is convicted and the dad is acquitted. I despise the double standard our society holds for moms vs dads, and I think some of Mrs. Crumbley’s case (the way the prosecution painted her as more concerned about an affair than her kid, for example) would NEVER have been used against a dad in the same way.

The dad bought the gun - I actually think he’s more liable than the mom. The mom wasn’t great, and she messed up big time, but so did dad and I just have a feeling he’s going to be let off. I hope I’m wrong.

This is unlikely. One of the reasons that the Crumbleys asked for separate trials is because they assumed it would be much easier to get the mother acquitted than the father.

The father bought the gun and was responsible for gun safety. He was also there at the school meeting and he also said he had to go back to work, but he worked in an office that had very flexible work commitments. He had even less reason to "need to go back to work" than the mother. He was the one who withdrew $6000 cash and found the friend who hid them in the closed office where they were found. He was the mastermind of the flight from detention. He did many more wrong things than his wife did and so his conviction was considered much more likely.

That said, I think it is much more likely he'll be convicted. But the female bias may come in during the sentencing if they get equal sentencing or she gets a heavier sentence than he does, even though he deserves at least as long a sentence as she gets, probably much longer.

Female bias in sentencing is that women get lighter sentences then men for the same crimem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

Okay, well getting mental health treatment for a minor teen and child is beyond difficult as well. When you can get an appointment (which the wait time is months/years in some cases), it's with a therapist. Getting actual medication and getting your minor teen to consume medication is a struggle.

I'm not absolving Lanza's parents, but I've been through the ringer to get my son diagnosed (bipolar II) and treated.

I know many do not like the answer, but access to guns is the issue that is easiest to control (for minors).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

Unless you've been here, PP, then you are probably not aware of how difficult it can be to get someone, including a minor, to stick with meds and a regimen. This doesn't mean folks shouldn't try - and is never an excuse for not purging firearms from the home or under a lock with many factors to enter - but it's not as straightforward as some here want to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

Unless you've been here, PP, then you are probably not aware of how difficult it can be to get someone, including a minor, to stick with meds and a regimen. This doesn't mean folks shouldn't try - and is never an excuse for not purging firearms from the home or under a lock with many factors to enter - but it's not as straightforward as some here want to believe.

Really? There's at least one poster here that seems to think you just call up the local mental hospital and say "Yeah, I know a grown adult that I'd like to have committed" and then they say "Well, bring him on down! We'll get that taken care of!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

Okay, well getting mental health treatment for a minor teen and child is beyond difficult as well. When you can get an appointment (which the wait time is months/years in some cases), it's with a therapist. Getting actual medication and getting your minor teen to consume medication is a struggle.

I'm not absolving Lanza's parents, but I've been through the ringer to get my son diagnosed (bipolar II) and treated.


I know many do not like the answer, but access to guns is the issue that is easiest to control (for minors).

PP here. I agree with all you said. I also posted the link above about the numerous guns, swords, and knives in Nancy Lanza's home that were accessible to her mentally ill son.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

+1. Other PP here. This is my point exactly. The bury your head in the sand parents did nothing but continue to bury their heads in the sand. Impulsive parents have impulsive kids. It is not good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still dumbfounded how the murderer's parents were not charged i the Sandy Hook shooting. It's infuriating.

These shootings nearly never occur in a vacuum, and both parents are responsible for not taking warning signs seriously.

So many parents abdicate responsibility by thinking their son could never go these lengths. The denial is massive, and I'm sure there are some parents on DCUM who are denial about their kids issues.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother. He had not seen his father in two years. There was no one to charge.

Was there any evidence that the dad had tried to get help for his son, during that time? He had massive mental health issues for far beyond those 2 years.

The Sandy Hook shooter was an adult. Try getting mental health treatment for an uncooperative adult and come back to us with all the answers.

There were many years between the divorce and Adam becoming an adult.

Unless you've been here, PP, then you are probably not aware of how difficult it can be to get someone, including a minor, to stick with meds and a regimen. This doesn't mean folks shouldn't try - and is never an excuse for not purging firearms from the home or under a lock with many factors to enter - but it's not as straightforward as some here want to believe.

Really? There's at least one poster here that seems to think you just call up the local mental hospital and say "Yeah, I know a grown adult that I'd like to have committed" and then they say "Well, bring him on down! We'll get that taken care of!"

No one is saying that. But there are some parents who fuel the issues (like buying guns) instead of creating a safer environment for all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now I hope the dad is held to the same standard as mom.

Parents should absolutely be held accountable for their children’s behavior/gun access.

I’m going to be LIVID if the mom is convicted and the dad is acquitted. I despise the double standard our society holds for moms vs dads, and I think some of Mrs. Crumbley’s case (the way the prosecution painted her as more concerned about an affair than her kid, for example) would NEVER have been used against a dad in the same way.

The dad bought the gun - I actually think he’s more liable than the mom. The mom wasn’t great, and she messed up big time, but so did dad and I just have a feeling he’s going to be let off. I hope I’m wrong.

This is unlikely. One of the reasons that the Crumbleys asked for separate trials is because they assumed it would be much easier to get the mother acquitted than the father.

The father bought the gun and was responsible for gun safety. He was also there at the school meeting and he also said he had to go back to work, but he worked in an office that had very flexible work commitments. He had even less reason to "need to go back to work" than the mother. He was the one who withdrew $6000 cash and found the friend who hid them in the closed office where they were found. He was the mastermind of the flight from detention. He did many more wrong things than his wife did and so his conviction was considered much more likely.

That said, I think it is much more likely he'll be convicted. But the female bias may come in during the sentencing if they get equal sentencing or she gets a heavier sentence than he does, even though he deserves at least as long a sentence as she gets, probably much longer.

DP here. While I agree mothers too often get blamed, I don't care which one of them gets incarcerated. Preferably both. These are not good people.