Law school financial aid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

At least some of those other associates left because they had other options that they preferred. I don't believe they all wanted to make partner, as every associate class has several folks gunning for in house or govt jobs after they have some experience and have paid down their loans.

You must have had a spending problem to take 8 years to pay off your loans. That's a long time on a BigLaw salary. I killed mine in just a couple of years and had more than you did to start. It's important not to increase your spending post-law school until you've made major progress on your loans or you can end up with golden handcuffs or in a rough financial spot if there's layoff.

Thanks for the snark, did that make you feel better. It took me 8 years to pay off my loans because I also put myself through understate and business school (I have an MBA/JD so 4 years grad school). Some of us don’t have parent who paid for a cent for our education.

I am very proud of paying off everything by 2008, as well as buy a car, buy a house and IVF treatments without going into debt. There is zero you can say about yourself that makes me look bad. Kisses.

You should be. Still paying off husband's law school loans although at least we're getting near the end. And yes, I know that was bad planning and now we're living with it.

I don't understand why people on this board are so mean all the time. Mean and thin-skinned at the same time.

Like what's the point of lecturing a total stranger about choices that stranger made ten years ago when you know nothing about their life? To feel superior? And then there's the thin-skinned person chiming on that those other associates weren't really laid off... Sure. They're probably all chose to live on a farm with Old Yeller, Larlo. That's what happened. You're not allowed to tell the truth about biglaw attrition because you might hurt their feelings... but they feel free to give you a snide lecture about your spending.

Are you really posting to profess your knowledge of the legal industry based on your husband being a lawyer? There are lots of folks who start as associates in BigLaw with zero intention to make partner. They want to pivot to government or in house rolls. No layoffs involved. They don't want the lifestyle and there is other interesting work outside of BigLaw. New partners often try to convince themselves that they somehow won, when others weren't even in the race and didn't want the prize. Sure, partner comes with a big paycheck, but it also means limited time with your family and takes a big toll on your health.

But you didn't make partner. Otherwise, why would you be so bitter and judgmental?

Correcting an incorrect assumption that every associate wants to make partner is bitter and judgemental?

You want an example? One of my good friends left BigLaw to go to the solicitor's office, then spent some time advising the judiciary committee, and is now on the federal bench. There are lots of paths other than partner.

But not you. You just raise your kids and lurk on message boards to tell other people they make bad financial choices.

Nah, I have an awesome in house job. It's just harder to explain why it's awesome while staying anonymous.

Well, that does explain all your free time.

Yup, in house attorneys generally don't work on weekends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

[Anonymous]

People in DC tend to forget that there are many, many local law jobs at firms for clients who don't need to hire a dozen lawyers for millions of dollars - like family, immigration, employment, tax/busiess law for small companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People in DC tend to forget that there are many, many local law jobs at firms for clients who don't need to hire a dozen lawyers for millions of dollars - like family, immigration, employment, tax/busiess law for small companies.

The problem is that those jobs don't pay enough to allow someone to pay off 250k in law school loans, while also helping cover childcare and a mortgage.

Those jobs also don't tend to hire right out of law school because smaller firms and solos don't have the bandwidth to train brand-new associates. It can be really hard to get started right out of law school if you don't get a BigLaw spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

If you are young, they will 100% be more reluctant to take you and look for evidence you are serious. And even then, they will likely pass you by assuming you can wait until you’re older. They do not want 22 year olds getting panic attacks or dropping out because they’re not ready for the pressure. For the most competitive schools, you have to have multiple internships related to law, not just related ECs. They don’t just want a high LSAT score, they want to know you’ll graduate and pass the bar.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People in DC tend to forget that there are many, many local law jobs at firms for clients who don't need to hire a dozen lawyers for millions of dollars - like family, immigration, employment, tax/busiess law for small companies.

Yes that's called craplaw and people absolutely know about those firms. You learn about them when you don't get a biglaw internship or federal court clerk 2L year. There are people who don't even get these jobs and have to do doc review.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

At least some of those other associates left because they had other options that they preferred. I don't believe they all wanted to make partner, as every associate class has several folks gunning for in house or govt jobs after they have some experience and have paid down their loans.

You must have had a spending problem to take 8 years to pay off your loans. That's a long time on a BigLaw salary. I killed mine in just a couple of years and had more than you did to start. It's important not to increase your spending post-law school until you've made major progress on your loans or you can end up with golden handcuffs or in a rough financial spot if there's layoff.

Thanks for the snark, did that make you feel better. It took me 8 years to pay off my loans because I also put myself through understate and business school (I have an MBA/JD so 4 years grad school). Some of us don’t have parent who paid for a cent for our education.

I am very proud of paying off everything by 2008, as well as buy a car, buy a house and IVF treatments without going into debt. There is zero you can say about yourself that makes me look bad. Kisses.

Whoa, hostile much? It's just bad advice to give that anyone should plan 8 years to pay off loans while in BigLaw. I had lots of friends who decided on that plan while living it up, only to get burned with an early exit. I'd never advise anyone to take that long.

And I also had plenty of loans. If you want a pissing contest, I got a JD/PhD with no parental help. Feel better? I still advise law students not to plan on 8 years in BigLaw. That's a risky bet.

I didn’t advise them to do it either. You were rude, at least own it. I called you out. Maybe next time stop giving lawyers a bad name by being such a jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

For the non-lawyers still reading this thread (or is it just lawyers sniping at each other at this point?) be very careful reading those salary numbers. They are eye popping and are NOT the norm in the legal world. BigLaw primarily hires from the top 10 law schools. So if your DC doesn’t get in to a top 10 law school (which even then won’t guarantee a BigLaw job), think long and hard before taking on such debt (especially on top of undergrad debt).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

^^^This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

^^^This.

Is not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

At least some of those other associates left because they had other options that they preferred. I don't believe they all wanted to make partner, as every associate class has several folks gunning for in house or govt jobs after they have some experience and have paid down their loans.

You must have had a spending problem to take 8 years to pay off your loans. That's a long time on a BigLaw salary. I killed mine in just a couple of years and had more than you did to start. It's important not to increase your spending post-law school until you've made major progress on your loans or you can end up with golden handcuffs or in a rough financial spot if there's layoff.

Thanks for the snark, did that make you feel better. It took me 8 years to pay off my loans because I also put myself through understate and business school (I have an MBA/JD so 4 years grad school). Some of us don’t have parent who paid for a cent for our education.

I am very proud of paying off everything by 2008, as well as buy a car, buy a house and IVF treatments without going into debt. There is zero you can say about yourself that makes me look bad. Kisses.

You should be. Still paying off husband's law school loans although at least we're getting near the end. And yes, I know that was bad planning and now we're living with it.

I don't understand why people on this board are so mean all the time. Mean and thin-skinned at the same time.

Like what's the point of lecturing a total stranger about choices that stranger made ten years ago when you know nothing about their life? To feel superior? And then there's the thin-skinned person chiming on that those other associates weren't really laid off... Sure. They're probably all chose to live on a farm with Old Yeller, Larlo. That's what happened. You're not allowed to tell the truth about biglaw attrition because you might hurt their feelings... but they feel free to give you a snide lecture about your spending.

Are you really posting to profess your knowledge of the legal industry based on your husband being a lawyer? There are lots of folks who start as associates in BigLaw with zero intention to make partner. They want to pivot to government or in house rolls. No layoffs involved. They don't want the lifestyle and there is other interesting work outside of BigLaw. New partners often try to convince themselves that they somehow won, when others weren't even in the race and didn't want the prize. Sure, partner comes with a big paycheck, but it also means limited time with your family and takes a big toll on your health.

But you didn't make partner. Otherwise, why would you be so bitter and judgmental?

Correcting an incorrect assumption that every associate wants to make partner is bitter and judgemental?

You want an example? One of my good friends left BigLaw to go to the solicitor's office, then spent some time advising the judiciary committee, and is now on the federal bench. There are lots of paths other than partner.

To add, I know many, MANY Of my classmates who a) left BigLaw or b) left the law altogether. It's not always a pleasant profession. And other lawyers are, largely, dicks.

I've practiced for 25 years, starting in a small firm and then transitioning to government. Government or nonprofit was my career goals (law school was expensive but not as bad as it is now so this was not unreasonable; I would not rec that now).

Not everyone wants or stays in BigLaw. What a ridiculous assumption by the "bitter" poster above. You're an a$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

HLS medians last year were 3.93/174

75th percentile were 3.99/176

So those friends weren’t in any way distinguished in the applicant pool

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

HLS medians last year were 3.93/174

75th percentile were 3.99/176

So those friends weren’t in any way distinguished in the applicant pool

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/

Apparently what distinguished them is being poors who had to work for *gasp* money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

HLS medians last year were 3.93/174

75th percentile were 3.99/176

So those friends weren’t in any way distinguished in the applicant pool

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/

Apparently what distinguished them is being poors who had to work for *gasp* money.

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I find it funny when Gen Xers are like “I had a 3.7 and a 171 and that was good enough to get into Harvard and Yale” and have 0 comprehension that - much like undergrad qualification inflation - those stats are garbage today

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

Another lawyer here. +1000 -- It's scary how many people post on this board about going to law school or, more often, their DC going to law school, and they seem to assume that the career path will be become=a-partner-in-a-white-shoe-firm. The odds of that are so low. Hell, the odds of getting a job as an associate in BigLaw are low. It's exactly what you said: so many people accumulating debt they don't fully understand. Or don't understand at all. I have a lot of friends from law school stuck in jobs they hate because the law school debt trapped them. Others struggle because they were simply never able to land a really well-paying job (and I went to a first-tier ls). It's so much rougher out there than people know, and even if they did know, everyone thinks they are going to be the one to succeed. Not likely.