Law school financial aid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

It's almost never accurate to say something never happens. There are lots of PPs saying they got merit aid or know someone who did. But it's not a good idea to plan on that.

For similar reasons, not a good idea to plan on landing a Big Law job even though it obviously happens to many.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

HLS medians last year were 3.93/174

75th percentile were 3.99/176

So those friends weren’t in any way distinguished in the applicant pool

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/

Apparently what distinguished them is being poors who had to work for *gasp* money.

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I find it funny when Gen Xers are like “I had a 3.7 and a 171 and that was good enough to get into Harvard and Yale” and have 0 comprehension that - much like undergrad qualification inflation - those stats are garbage today

Ok, sure -- all of us successful Gen X'rs are garbage. No. Look -- everything is relative. The top get into Harvard and Yale. In the way-back machine when us Gen X'rs were in school. And now. Do you really think younger folks at Harvard and Yale today are so much smarter/better or whatever than the students were 30 years ago because of some higher "stats"? Nope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious…how does one become a law professor…is there such a thing as a law PhD? Almost sounds like the route for DD.

Just wondering if that route is fully covered. As an example, you of course have to pay yourself for an MBA, but a finance PhD is 100% free and actually you can earn decent money getting research sponsored.

Wondering if law is at all the same.

To be a professor, you attend Yale for your law degree. Many also get a PhD in another subject.

This is actually true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

It's not typical to land a paid internship your first summer. Most students work for free.
Your second summer, you typically (or at least ideally) get a paid law firm internship called "summer associate" and at the end of the summer they invite you to work there after graduation. If you don't get a summer associate spot it is very difficult to get into a law firm as a new grad. My summer pay would have covered only half of one year's tuition, but maybe things have changed.

Most students take a mix of private and Federal loans. The Federal loans can be forgiven after 10 years of public service (many qualifiers on this). If you get a law firm job you can definitely pay back your private loans in 3 years or so, maybe you could pay all of them in 5 years if you were focused on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

These have been really helpful posts. I have a college freshman who seems to be heading this way, but is pretty introverted. I know there are tons of legal jobs that would work for an introvert, but I assumed the big firms were probably not the right direction for her. But are the 'execution partners' often introverts?

Yes, but firms really don’t “want” execution partners, even that is where some end up. Often times they create a non-partner track Of Counsel position.

You shouldn’t enter Big Law expecting to become an execution partner. You are always vulnerable and it’s really not what the firm is trying to create from its associate pool.

The days of the "execution partner" are all but gone. Nowadays if they want you around as a work horse they'll offer your sorry little ego a counsel title or that junior partner nonsense that can actually be a worse deal than remaining an associate. Partners have/bring in clients. Law firms are a business -- they are in the business of selling professional services. Someone needs to be doing the selling and the hand holding -- it's the most important thing. And selling/hand holding with the right clients takes certain skills. Without talented partners bringing in work, you don't need all those associates or junior partners or "of counsel" or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

HLS medians last year were 3.93/174

75th percentile were 3.99/176

So those friends weren’t in any way distinguished in the applicant pool

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/

Apparently what distinguished them is being poors who had to work for *gasp* money.

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I find it funny when Gen Xers are like “I had a 3.7 and a 171 and that was good enough to get into Harvard and Yale” and have 0 comprehension that - much like undergrad qualification inflation - those stats are garbage today

Was referring to PP who said: "Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?"

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]People in DC tend to forget that there are many, many local law jobs at firms for clients who don't need to hire a dozen lawyers for millions of dollars - like family, immigration, employment, tax/busiess law for small companies. [/quote]The problem is that those jobs don't pay enough to allow someone to pay off 250k in law school loans, while also helping cover childcare and a mortgage.

Those jobs also don't tend to hire right out of law school because smaller firms and solos don't have the bandwidth to train brand-new associates. It can be really hard to get started right out of law school if you don't get a BigLaw spot.[/quote]

One of the best ways is to already have an adjacent job. Paralegal, patent associate, whatever. Fordham night school is really well-ranked because it's full of dedicated people gettint their law degrees in between their full-time jobs.

That option may be too blue collar for this board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

HLS medians last year were 3.93/174

75th percentile were 3.99/176

So those friends weren’t in any way distinguished in the applicant pool

https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/jdapplicants/hls-profile-and-facts/

And yet the lowest stats got in. How were they distinguished? Their resume full of unpaid internships in the field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious…how does one become a law professor…is there such a thing as a law PhD? Almost sounds like the route for DD.

Just wondering if that route is fully covered. As an example, you of course have to pay yourself for an MBA, but a finance PhD is 100% free and actually you can earn decent money getting research sponsored.

Wondering if law is at all the same.

To be a professor, you attend Yale for your law degree. Many also get a PhD in another subject.

This is actually true.

No it isn't. I know several law professors who didn't go to Yale. Well, not for their JD anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

There is no “financial aid” based on need. Some law schools do offer merit aid to attract students with very high qualifications. This also varies by how many students are applying at the time. During the last recession, apps dropped off and schools got aggressive about chasing the best students. Not sure what the situation is now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious…how does one become a law professor…is there such a thing as a law PhD? Almost sounds like the route for DD.

Just wondering if that route is fully covered. As an example, you of course have to pay yourself for an MBA, but a finance PhD is 100% free and actually you can earn decent money getting research sponsored.

Wondering if law is at all the same.

To be a professor, you attend Yale for your law degree. Many also get a PhD in another subject.

This is actually true.

It’s practically true. Other than Yale, there are law professors who went to Harvard or NYU, and a handful from schools like Vanderbilt or Texas, but yes, attending a top 14 school is a requirement. (Which, by the way is how we know (despite what they claim) Harvard hired Elizabeth Warren because they thought she was Native American. She went to Rutgers.) According to the article below, there are 66 law professors in the U.S. that didn’t pass through a t-14 law school for their JD or advanced degree & all but 2 had an advanced degree. Most of the non-t-14 advanced degrees are from places like Oxford or degrees tied to their specialty.

https://nationaljurist.com/national-jurist-magazine/where-law-professors-went-law-school/

It says almost a third of law professors in the country either attended Yale or Harvard. Adding New York University accounts for 42% of legal academics who graduated between 2011 and 2020.

Spivey Consulting broke the numbers down even further. On its blog post on this topic, it says NYU outperformed its ranking. The top six law schools plus NYU grads placed more than half of the nation’s law professors (58%).

The majority of professors attended law school at a top 14 school (77%) and another five law schools placed five or more graduates: Hebrew University (13), Texas (9), Vanderbilt (9), UCLA (8), and Iowa (5). Collectively, these 19 law schools are on the resumes of 80% of law professors.

When it comes to the degrees obtained, more than 500 professors, or 58%, had other graduate degrees to go along with their law degree. PhDs (226) LLM (70) JSD/SJDs (40) and a dozen BPhils or DPhils from Oxford. Just over a hundred (105) graduates from this list went to teach at a T14 law school.

Of those 138 with non-T14 JDs, 73 had an LLM or JSD/SJD from a T14, leaving 66 (about 8%) who never passed through a T14 law school during their legal education. All but 2 of the 138 had some additional graduate degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious…how does one become a law professor…is there such a thing as a law PhD? Almost sounds like the route for DD.

Just wondering if that route is fully covered. As an example, you of course have to pay yourself for an MBA, but a finance PhD is 100% free and actually you can earn decent money getting research sponsored.

Wondering if law is at all the same.

To be a professor, you attend Yale for your law degree. Many also get a PhD in another subject.

This is actually true.

I’ve looked at law school web sites to see where their professors went to law school. Most didn’t go to Yale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

There is no “financial aid” based on need. Some law schools do offer merit aid to attract students with very high qualifications. This also varies by how many students are applying at the time. During the last recession, apps dropped off and schools got aggressive about chasing the best students. Not sure what the situation is now.

Somebody should share this knowledge with the admissions & financial aid folks at Harvard, Yale, & Stanford law schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law schools are going to be able to tell that she’s not that into it. Great schools will weed out an app like that and they certainly won’t give merit aid. It’s hard enough for any 24 year old to prove to law schools they can hack it, even with obvious recs, internships, and ECs to prove it. Law schools prefer older students.

I recommend she either wait until she’s sure it’s what she wants or can go into debt for the hobby of learning (if she can afford an expensive hobby.) I get it. I love learning too and I fully support intellectual curiosity but law school is no joke and you have to be committed. It also feels wrong to give merit aid to someone who is basically auditing classes instead of someone who will put their degree to work. I’d suggest she wait until she’s about 28 or 30 to decide.

Law schools look at GPA and LSAT. They don't try to figure out if you are interested in becoming an attorney.

This outdated advice.

If you are young, they will 100% be more reluctant to take you and look for evidence you are serious. And even then, they will likely pass you by assuming you can wait until you’re older. They do not want 22 year olds getting panic attacks or dropping out because they’re not ready for the pressure. For the most competitive schools, you have to have multiple internships related to law, not just related ECs. They don’t just want a high LSAT score, they want to know you’ll graduate and pass the bar.

Last year someone with a 3.7/168 got into Harvard but not their friends with 3.8/174 and 4.0/176. Guess which of the three kids had more unpaid internships? Guess which kids worked paid jobs unrelated to law?

It’s really bad advice to tell people it’s “grades and lsat”. Like undergrad, that is just the beginning.

What is your source ? This is total garbage advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Law school admissions is changing and this may affect the availability of merit based scholarship awards from law schools. Some law schools are considering abandoning the LSAT and standardized testing as an admissions requirements while other law schools now accept the GRE in lieu of the LSAT.

Many law schools are refusing to supply US News with requested information. If US News stops rating & ranking law schools, then many merit based law school scholarships will disappear as merit scholarships were offered primarily to raise a particular law school's median admissions standards ( undergraduate GPA & LSAT score) in an effort to raise that law school's US News ranking.

Currently the American Bar Association requires colleges to require standardized testing. So it's not really something that schools can consider abandoning.

The ABA has gone back-and-forth on standardized testing as a requirement.

https://blog.accepted.com/aba-drops-lsat-requirement-beginning-in-2025/

But then:

https://reuters.com/legal/government/aba-pauses-move-nix-lsat-requirement-2023-05-12/