Law school financial aid

[Anonymous]

Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

[Anonymous]

Yale has a Ph.D. in law program for people who have a JD and want to get a doctorate.
https://law.yale.edu/studying-law-yale/degree-programs/graduate-programs/phd-program

As far as “free rides,” you can sometimes get them. When I was applying I was offered free tuition at UMich and NYU (plus a small stipend that wasn’t enough to live on but was something). But OP, your daughter should go to law school wherever it’s the cheapest for her to go. I do remember some schools wanting my parents’ financial info even though I was in my mid-20s and had been independent for a few years.

[Anonymous]

You can look at the stats and see that even the very top law schools offer grants to many students. But most are in the $20K to $30K range, on $80K tuition. Unless the parent pays, kids take out loans for what they need.

[Anonymous]

OP: Some law schools do offer need based financial aid (examples are Harvard, Yale, & Stanford law schools).

Most law schools do offer merit scholarships of varying amounts; however, the top three law schools (Yale, Stanford, & Harvard) only offer need based financial aid.

The most coveted law school merit scholarships are offered by the University of Chicago law school and by Columbia law school in order to persuade top students to attend one of these #4 ranked law schools instead of attending one of the top 3 (Harvard, Yale, and Stanford) law schools.

The better question is which law schools offer need based grant aid as opposed to only offering need based loans (students at all law schools can take out federal loans, but not all law schools offer institutional loans).

OP: Almost every post in this thread contains a mixture of correct and incorrect information. If specifically interested in need based financial aid grants and institutional loans, then you need to use google to research each law school as there is no universal policy regarding law school financial aid beyond federal loans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hmm. I'm a tax lawyer and wouldn't think of it this way. Not at all.

[Anonymous]

Seems like the article like the below has been coming out on a weekly basis for the past several decades.


https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/wsj-with-high-paying-jobs-out-of-reach-for-most-law-school-graduates-routinely-carry-six-figure-student-loans.4620150/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

I really don't know how things are now. But maybe what I have to add will help at least a little. 20 years ago I was offered a full scholarship to Northern IL. They contacted me, told me about the scholarship, and asked me to come to their diversity open house. I called them and told them they'd made a mistake, that I'm white, and the admissions coordinator told me "Oh, please come to the open house, we don't have a lot of women here." It's been long enough that I imagine that is not still the case (gosh, I hope not). But the offer for that full ride clearly came to me because they were trying to diversify their class. FWIW, I lived in Chicago at the time, and I think they were looking to recruit in-state people. Notre Dame also contacted me offering scholarship money (although not a full ride). I think a few other schools did as well, but I remember those two because I actually considered Notre Dame and the IL diversity story struck me as strange. I got these offers out of the blue (I had not applied to N IL or Notre Dame) because when I took the LSAT there was a checkbox you could check allowing them to release your scores to law schools for recruiting purposes and I checked it, and then got a 99th percentile LSAT score.

I ended up full pay at a law school that didn't offer me money because it was my first choice and my grandmother graciously offered to pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hmm. I'm a tax lawyer and wouldn't think of it this way. Not at all.

Whether or not the practice of tax law is primarily an academic/intellectual practice depends upon one's job. For those tax attorneys involved in worldwide cutting edge mergers and acquisitions tax practices as well as many of those involved in government policy making regarding taxation and tax laws, the practice of tax law is highly academic and can be intensely academic.

[Anonymous]

OP: I have written two posts above and would like to continue.

Law school can be very inexpensive for those residents attending their state flagship public law school in flyover states. Typically, this is the best option both with respect to cost as well as employment in those states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

I really don't know how things are now. But maybe what I have to add will help at least a little. 20 years ago I was offered a full scholarship to Northern IL. They contacted me, told me about the scholarship, and asked me to come to their diversity open house. I called them and told them they'd made a mistake, that I'm white, and the admissions coordinator told me "Oh, please come to the open house, we don't have a lot of women here." It's been long enough that I imagine that is not still the case (gosh, I hope not). But the offer for that full ride clearly came to me because they were trying to diversify their class. FWIW, I lived in Chicago at the time, and I think they were looking to recruit in-state people. Notre Dame also contacted me offering scholarship money (although not a full ride). I think a few other schools did as well, but I remember those two because I actually considered Notre Dame and the IL diversity story struck me as strange. I got these offers out of the blue (I had not applied to N IL or Notre Dame) because when I took the LSAT there was a checkbox you could check allowing them to release your scores to law schools for recruiting purposes and I checked it, and then got a 99th percentile LSAT score.

I ended up full pay at a law school that didn't offer me money because it was my first choice and my grandmother graciously offered to pay.

That was the wrong answer to the northern IL school. PP should have declined to show by saying she couldn't afford a bus fare to the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just a question. I heard attorneys are required to bring in business - clients - when they are hired. Is this true? Or are the firms bringing in the clients to be assigned to different attorneys?

[Anonymous]

Law school admissions is changing and this may affect the availability of merit based scholarship awards from law schools. Some law schools are considering abandoning the LSAT and standardized testing as an admissions requirements while other law schools now accept the GRE in lieu of the LSAT.

Many law schools are refusing to supply US News with requested information. If US News stops rating & ranking law schools, then many merit based law school scholarships will disappear as merit scholarships were offered primarily to raise a particular law school's median admissions standards ( undergraduate GPA & LSAT score) in an effort to raise that law school's US News ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just a question. I heard attorneys are required to bring in business - clients - when they are hired. Is this true? Or are the firms bringing in the clients to be assigned to different attorneys?

Not a requirement and not an expectation of biglaw associates during their first five or six years or longer. Biglaw firms expect partners to bring in business and clients, but typically do not expect that of associates.

Small law firms need associates who are capable of both servicing current firm clients and of bringing in new business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hmm. I'm a tax lawyer and wouldn't think of it this way. Not at all.

Whether or not the practice of tax law is primarily an academic/intellectual practice depends upon one's job. For those tax attorneys involved in worldwide cutting edge mergers and acquisitions tax practices as well as many of those involved in government policy making regarding taxation and tax laws, the practice of tax law is highly academic and can be intensely academic.

Lol. I'm familiar with what tax attorneys do. And I've actually worked in very a high profile policy position (high enough that many who work in tax would recognize my name). But by all means, keep explaining my own world to me.