Law school financial aid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hmm. I'm a tax lawyer and wouldn't think of it this way. Not at all.

Whether or not the practice of tax law is primarily an academic/intellectual practice depends upon one's job. For those tax attorneys involved in worldwide cutting edge mergers and acquisitions tax practices as well as many of those involved in government policy making regarding taxation and tax laws, the practice of tax law is highly academic and can be intensely academic.

Lol. I'm familiar with what tax attorneys do. And I've actually worked in very a high profile policy position (high enough that many who work in tax would recognize my name). But by all means, keep explaining my own world to me.

LOL ! Obviously, I was not explaining your own world to you; I was sharing that there are different types of jobs which demand different skills in the world of tax law.

Anyone who would attempt to lump all tax attorneys together as doing the same thing is not as aware as you think you are even though a hotshot tax attorney who has "worked in a very high profile policy position(high enough that many who work in tax would recognize [your] name." LOL !

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hmm. I'm a tax lawyer and wouldn't think of it this way. Not at all.

Whether or not the practice of tax law is primarily an academic/intellectual practice depends upon one's job. For those tax attorneys involved in worldwide cutting edge mergers and acquisitions tax practices as well as many of those involved in government policy making regarding taxation and tax laws, the practice of tax law is highly academic and can be intensely academic.

Lol. I'm familiar with what tax attorneys do. And I've actually worked in very a high profile policy position (high enough that many who work in tax would recognize my name). But by all means, keep explaining my own world to me.

LOL ! Obviously, I was not explaining your own world to you; I was sharing that there are different types of jobs which demand different skills in the world of tax law.

Anyone who would attempt to lump all tax attorneys together as doing the same thing is not as aware as you think you are even though a hotshot tax attorney who has "worked in a very high profile policy position(high enough that many who work in tax would recognize [your] name." LOL !

What? Where is this "attempt to lump all tax attorneys together" nonsense coming from? Where did I do that? Nowhere. Now you are just making up nonsense to defend your own ignorance. What on earth is it about DCUM that we have so many people either pretending to be lawyers and/or pretending to know about legal careers? What on earth is it? Why do people feel such a desperate need to run their mouths about things they know nothing about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hmm. I'm a tax lawyer and wouldn't think of it this way. Not at all.

Whether or not the practice of tax law is primarily an academic/intellectual practice depends upon one's job. For those tax attorneys involved in worldwide cutting edge mergers and acquisitions tax practices as well as many of those involved in government policy making regarding taxation and tax laws, the practice of tax law is highly academic and can be intensely academic.

Lol. I'm familiar with what tax attorneys do. And I've actually worked in very a high profile policy position (high enough that many who work in tax would recognize my name). But by all means, keep explaining my own world to me.

LOL ! Obviously, I was not explaining your own world to you; I was sharing that there are different types of jobs which demand different skills in the world of tax law.

Anyone who would attempt to lump all tax attorneys together as doing the same thing is not as aware as you think you are even though a hotshot tax attorney who has "worked in a very high profile policy position(high enough that many who work in tax would recognize [your] name." LOL !

What? Where is this "attempt to lump all tax attorneys together" nonsense coming from? Where did I do that? Nowhere. Now you are just making up nonsense to defend your own ignorance. What on earth is it about DCUM that we have so many people either pretending to be lawyers and/or pretending to know about legal careers? What on earth is it? Why do people feel such a desperate need to run their mouths about things they know nothing about?

Sorry that you are having a bad day. The content and tone of your posts are quite revealing. I sincerely hope that things get better for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

These have been really helpful posts. I have a college freshman who seems to be heading this way, but is pretty introverted. I know there are tons of legal jobs that would work for an introvert, but I assumed the big firms were probably not the right direction for her. But are the 'execution partners' often introverts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

These have been really helpful posts. I have a college freshman who seems to be heading this way, but is pretty introverted. I know there are tons of legal jobs that would work for an introvert, but I assumed the big firms were probably not the right direction for her. But are the 'execution partners' often introverts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

These have been really helpful posts. I have a college freshman who seems to be heading this way, but is pretty introverted. I know there are tons of legal jobs that would work for an introvert, but I assumed the big firms were probably not the right direction for her. But are the 'execution partners' often introverts?

Yes, but firms really don’t “want” execution partners, even that is where some end up. Often times they create a non-partner track Of Counsel position.

You shouldn’t enter Big Law expecting to become an execution partner. You are always vulnerable and it’s really not what the firm is trying to create from its associate pool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

And once you're out of biglaw and into boutique or whatever, don't count on getting any salary increases. Or even bonuses.

My spouse is amazing at what they do. But we've been paying 1k a month for their loans for the past seventeen years and still owe like 30k, they haven't had a raise in eight years, becoming partner meant we had to pay for our own health insurance completely out of pocket, and it's just not that great.

They love their job and I prefer that to someone miserable at Weil or whatever, but honestly, if they'd just gone fed and made a little less money with better benefits, we'd be so much better off.

--married to former biglaw partner who is more of a worker bee than a rainmaker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

And once you're out of biglaw and into boutique or whatever, don't count on getting any salary increases. Or even bonuses.

My spouse is amazing at what they do. But we've been paying 1k a month for their loans for the past seventeen years and still owe like 30k, they haven't had a raise in eight years, becoming partner meant we had to pay for our own health insurance completely out of pocket, and it's just not that great.

They love their job and I prefer that to someone miserable at Weil or whatever, but honestly, if they'd just gone fed and made a little less money with better benefits, we'd be so much better off.

--married to former biglaw partner who is more of a worker bee than a rainmaker.

Also, generative AI will disrupt the legal profession. It makes experienced lawyers much more productive which likely translates into needing fewer green associates.

Law firms are businesses and equity partners like putting more money in their pockets and have no problem cutting the number of associates they hire (which they view as a necessary expense, but there is a weird antagonistic relationship).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

These have been really helpful posts. I have a college freshman who seems to be heading this way, but is pretty introverted. I know there are tons of legal jobs that would work for an introvert, but I assumed the big firms were probably not the right direction for her. But are the 'execution partners' often introverts?

Yes, but firms really don’t “want” execution partners, even that is where some end up. Often times they create a non-partner track Of Counsel position.

You shouldn’t enter Big Law expecting to become an execution partner. You are always vulnerable and it’s really not what the firm is trying to create from its associate pool.

How much does someone "Of Counsel" pull down?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

And once you're out of biglaw and into boutique or whatever, don't count on getting any salary increases. Or even bonuses.

My spouse is amazing at what they do. But we've been paying 1k a month for their loans for the past seventeen years and still owe like 30k, they haven't had a raise in eight years, becoming partner meant we had to pay for our own health insurance completely out of pocket, and it's just not that great.

They love their job and I prefer that to someone miserable at Weil or whatever, but honestly, if they'd just gone fed and made a little less money with better benefits, we'd be so much better off.

--married to former biglaw partner who is more of a worker bee than a rainmaker.

Also, generative AI will disrupt the legal profession. It makes experienced lawyers much more productive which likely translates into needing fewer green associates.

Law firms are businesses and equity partners like putting more money in their pockets and have no problem cutting the number of associates they hire (which they view as a necessary expense, but there is a weird antagonistic relationship).

Watching "Suits" - is that at all realistic?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

These have been really helpful posts. I have a college freshman who seems to be heading this way, but is pretty introverted. I know there are tons of legal jobs that would work for an introvert, but I assumed the big firms were probably not the right direction for her. But are the 'execution partners' often introverts?

Yes, but firms really don’t “want” execution partners, even that is where some end up. Often times they create a non-partner track Of Counsel position.

You shouldn’t enter Big Law expecting to become an execution partner. You are always vulnerable and it’s really not what the firm is trying to create from its associate pool.

How much does someone "Of Counsel" pull down?

"Of counsel" doesn't really have a fixed meaning. It can be anything from an associate who didn't make partner to the former head of an agency. The former would make about the same as an associate while the latter could be bringing in big bucks. It's a huge range.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

At least some of those other associates left because they had other options that they preferred. I don't believe they all wanted to make partner, as every associate class has several folks gunning for in house or govt jobs after they have some experience and have paid down their loans.

You must have had a spending problem to take 8 years to pay off your loans. That's a long time on a BigLaw salary. I killed mine in just a couple of years and had more than you did to start. It's important not to increase your spending post-law school until you've made major progress on your loans or you can end up with golden handcuffs or in a rough financial spot if there's layoff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not OP. But I'm interested in the same question. I've gleaned some knowledge from the thread, but hoping you can answer a couple of specific questions.

Assuming a kid applies to law school, intends to be a lawyer of some sort, and is going to need to pay for it themselves.

1. I understand from this thread that law school is very expensive, there is really no financial aid, but there is potentially merit.
So.
2. Students rack up a huge amount of student loans across three years.

My question is this. What is the 'typical' process for being able to pay back the loans.

Specifically, I'd heard that internships between first and second year, and between second and third year can pay very well-- enough to cover a lot of the next year's tuition. Is that right?

Is the starting salary for a typical law firm high enough to pay back the loan in 5 or so years?

I think there is some loan forgiveness if going into govt or non-profit work. Does that bring down the total cost a ton?

TIA!

"Biglaw" is loosely defined as law firms with at least 500 attorneys when combining all office locations. Biglaw tends to pay market rate salaries. Biglaw market rate salaries are usually lockstep salaries for the first 8 years. First year biglaw attorneys in major US markets earn about $225,000 base salary and an end of year bonus of $20,000. Biglaw Summer associates (interns) are paid the same weekly salary as a first year associate.

Those fortunate enough to land a biglaw associate position after finishing law school can pay back their loans of $200,000 to $350,000 in 5 years as biglaw salaries rise in a lockstep manner during one's first 8 years at most biglaw firms.

2024 Biglaw lockstep pay for first 8 years:

Year 1) Base salary of $225,000 plus possible--not guaranteed--year end bonus of $20,000

Year 2) $235,000 plus $30,000

Year 3) $260,000 plus $57,500

Year 4) $310,000 plus $75,000

Year 5) $365,000 plus $90,000

Year 6) $390,000 plus $105,000

Year 7) $420,000 plus $115,000

Year 8) $435,000 plus $115,000.

Just remember, that not all associates can make partner. Many leave early (say after 2-3 years) because the work is boring and the hours are brutal.

Others are told over the years that they are not on partner track and they are basically given time to find their next gig and then still technically leave voluntarily.

Even after year 8, some are forced out. At BigLaw there are revenue/relationship partners that know how to land business (there really isn’t much difference between hiring Kravath or Skadden for your IPO…so it boils down to relationships) and then execution partners. The relationship partners make multiples of the execution partners.

There are areas where an introvert can do well. A friend of mine’s mom was an ERISA partner…introverted woman but landed lots of business probably because her industry counterparts were similar.

My DH started with 25 associates and he was the only one to make partner (took 8 yrs non equity and then 2 more for equity) at Big Law. All the others were either pushed out or laid off.

This thread scares me as to people accumulating debt that they don’t fully understand. I also went to law school, paid for with some merit aid, a few scholarships and private Citibank loans all in my name. It took me 8 years to pay them all off. I had about $125,000 in loans by 2000. I don’t even want to think about what that would be today

I stayed in jobs I didn’t want and passed on ones I did so I could make enough money at Biglaw to pay off the loans, pay for my wedding and eventually by a house. These loans can be crippling, depressing and feel impossible to pay unless you absolutely understand every single minute details (such as interest accrues the day your loan is funded, possibly before even your first day of class). If your DD absolutely doesn’t want to be a lawyer or thinks it would be “fun” to join a cause or make a difference (I guess that means work at a nonprofit, ngo or the fed), how will they even make enough money to LIVE much less pay off their loans to a graduate school program they took for $hits and giggles?! I’m being serious. Super serious.

At least some of those other associates left because they had other options that they preferred. I don't believe they all wanted to make partner, as every associate class has several folks gunning for in house or govt jobs after they have some experience and have paid down their loans.

You must have had a spending problem to take 8 years to pay off your loans. That's a long time on a BigLaw salary. I killed mine in just a couple of years and had more than you did to start. It's important not to increase your spending post-law school until you've made major progress on your loans or you can end up with golden handcuffs or in a rough financial spot if there's layoff.

Thanks for the snark, did that make you feel better. It took me 8 years to pay off my loans because I also put myself through understate and business school (I have an MBA/JD so 4 years grad school). Some of us don’t have parent who paid for a cent for our education.

I am very proud of paying off everything by 2008, as well as buy a car, buy a house and IVF treatments without going into debt. There is zero you can say about yourself that makes me look bad. Kisses.