Law school financial aid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Curious…how does one become a law professor…is there such a thing as a law PhD? Almost sounds like the route for DD.

Just wondering if that route is fully covered. As an example, you of course have to pay yourself for an MBA, but a finance PhD is 100% free and actually you can earn decent money getting research sponsored.

Wondering if law is at all the same.

No, law is not at all the same.

You don't really pursue a Phd -- advanced study in law is called an LLM. The academics of law is a little weird and little backasswards: the basic degree is a doctorate, the JD, and then the (most common) advanced degree is the LLM, which is a master's degree. The JD is practical and basic, it provides foundational knowledge for the practice of law. The LLM is more academic and scholarly, and people get them in special areas (I have an LLM in tax). I know two people who got LLMs hoping to become law professors (one has a UVA JD and a Yale LLM, and one has a Berkeley JD and a Stanford LLM). They both did become professors, but they also had pretty significant and impressive experience as well, and one was highly published and one had done very high profile work. They also both started at the very bottom, teaching legal research and writing, which is in no way shape or form a job where you are actually a law professor. It's the lowest type of adjunct position there is and most people do it for fun, or while in transition, or something. It isn't a great stepping stone to becoming a professor because so few are going to be able to make the leap from it. But I do know those two people did. But you aren't going to get that job going from JD to LLM to teaching LR&W, you need experience first, and that means practicing law. And some law professors don't have LLMs at all, they are just famous or highly published. There is an SJD degree as well which is a research based degree more like a Phd. Some law professors have that, but not many. And there is the very, very rare professor with a somehow-relevant Phd. I'd say about half my law professors at my top tier school just had a JD, and about half had an LLM as well (or they had a law degree from another country and an LLM). Some SJDs and Phds were sprinkled in there, but not many.

And there is no funding for LLM programs like there is for Phd programs -- LLM programs are a cash cow for law schools. So ... they are quite expensive. (An LLM is also what international attorneys hoping to practice in the US get).

So ... I'm not going to say that carving out a career as a law professor is impossible for OP's child. It's not impossible. But it's probably almost impossible. And she'd either need to practice law for awhile (at a very high level -- BigLaw or DOJ), or publish like mad (possibly even a book or books in addition to law review articles) before even seeking academic work out. And the JD needs to be from a top school -- that goes without saying.

[Anonymous]

Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A law degree is a good credential to have. She can work in government if she wants.

This is OP! Thanks for the info regarding financial aid for prof schools. I understand it better now.

And I thought giving more information would keep the comments on topic lol.

I was trying to stress that we were just thinking about the finances of it. My personal thoughts now is that I would NOT want her to become an attorney. But we wouldn’t sway our 18-year-old either way at this point. Who knows!? She should learn a lot more about herself in the next few years to more solidify her decision on what she wants for her future.

Either way, DH works in finance where people with law degrees (attorneys and not) get paid substantially for a 9 to 5 job. They are more corporate lawyers and give input on
Contracts, compliance or regulatory issues. Again, we envision our snowflake doing more…. Actually Making laws and contributing more to societal changes, but who knows!?

If your husband works in finance and can pay out of pocket for college, why wouldn't you pay for graduate/law school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A law degree is a good credential to have. She can work in government if she wants.

This is OP! Thanks for the info regarding financial aid for prof schools. I understand it better now.

And I thought giving more information would keep the comments on topic lol.

I was trying to stress that we were just thinking about the finances of it. My personal thoughts now is that I would NOT want her to become an attorney. But we wouldn’t sway our 18-year-old either way at this point. Who knows!? She should learn a lot more about herself in the next few years to more solidify her decision on what she wants for her future.

Either way, DH works in finance where people with law degrees (attorneys and not) get paid substantially for a 9 to 5 job. They are more corporate lawyers and give input on
Contracts, compliance or regulatory issues. Again, we envision our snowflake doing more…. Actually Making laws and contributing more to societal changes, but who knows!?

If your husband works in finance and can pay out of pocket for college, why wouldn't you pay for graduate/law school?

Not OP. One school of thought: Many students end up in grad schools b/c they don’t know what they want to do and continuing school is easy choice. Then they burn out or just are miserable in school or worse, become the lawyer, doctor, consultant that they don’t want to be. If paying for school themselves, they are more invested in decision of do I really want this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A law degree is a good credential to have. She can work in government if she wants.

This is OP! Thanks for the info regarding financial aid for prof schools. I understand it better now.

And I thought giving more information would keep the comments on topic lol.

I was trying to stress that we were just thinking about the finances of it. My personal thoughts now is that I would NOT want her to become an attorney. But we wouldn’t sway our 18-year-old either way at this point. Who knows!? She should learn a lot more about herself in the next few years to more solidify her decision on what she wants for her future.

Either way, DH works in finance where people with law degrees (attorneys and not) get paid substantially for a 9 to 5 job. They are more corporate lawyers and give input on
Contracts, compliance or regulatory issues. Again, we envision our snowflake doing more…. Actually Making laws and contributing more to societal changes, but who knows!?

If your husband works in finance and can pay out of pocket for college, why wouldn't you pay for graduate/law school?

Not OP. One school of thought: Many students end up in grad schools b/c they don’t know what they want to do and continuing school is easy choice. Then they burn out or just are miserable in school or worse, become the lawyer, doctor, consultant that they don’t want to be. If paying for school themselves, they are more invested in decision of do I really want this.

If parent has $ wants to give can always do at end of grad school with “surprise! Here is tuition you paid!” and then adult can use toward housing, car, etc.

[Anonymous]

If you don’t intend to pay, make that known to her. She will have to get school loans which accrue interest the moment the $$ is taken. My DS went to medical school and we paid for all living expenses for 4 years. His med school loans are all his responsibility (not ours).

[Anonymous]

I heard about cases of “full ride” to the very best law schools, like UChicago. I guess it’s extremely hard to get those but I am not sure about the details.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I heard about cases of “full ride” to the very best law schools, like UChicago. I guess it’s extremely hard to get those but I am not sure about the details.

Someone I know got one—to Berkeley maybe? But he applied to law school each year for several years until he got the results he wanted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your DD should only go to law school if she gets into a top 15 school. The ones that can’t get lawyer jobs after graduation went to lower tier schools.

+1 to above PP on becoming a law professor - very hard.

Even if not a law professor, I think some areas of legal practice is more ‘academic’ - tax for sure, and maybe insurance, financial products? Basically, difficult and complicated subject matters that require expert knowledge. ‘Academic’ types do well in these fields, and get paid very well.

Hard is an understatement. To be a law professor you have to go to Yale law school and then have enough family money to only work 1 or 2 years in the private bar. Too much legal experience is considered a huge negative for tenure and likely leaves you to teaching small subject matter courses as an adjunct.

But if she has a shot then it's a cush lifestyle. Your publishing requirements have little or no peer review and the desperate students on law review will correct your grammar and shoddy citations. Money is good with extra coming from media asking your opinion on local/national matters or speaking at conferences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is merit aid, especially if you are a resident of the state where you're attending a state school. She will need excellent undergrad GPA and high LSAT score. College major does not really matter for admissions.

Ok, can we get a straight answer? Some people are saying “No way, no how—no free money to law students. Just loans.”

Others are saying there IS free money at at least some law schools in the form of merit aid.

Which is true?

Plan to pay and should only apply with thought will have to pay in full. To get any “free” money, ridiculous to bank on that (pun intended).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious…how does one become a law professor…is there such a thing as a law PhD? Almost sounds like the route for DD.

Just wondering if that route is fully covered. As an example, you of course have to pay yourself for an MBA, but a finance PhD is 100% free and actually you can earn decent money getting research sponsored.

Wondering if law is at all the same.

No, law is not at all the same.

You don't really pursue a Phd -- advanced study in law is called an LLM. The academics of law is a little weird and little backasswards: the basic degree is a doctorate, the JD, and then the (most common) advanced degree is the LLM, which is a master's degree. The JD is practical and basic, it provides foundational knowledge for the practice of law. The LLM is more academic and scholarly, and people get them in special areas (I have an LLM in tax). I know two people who got LLMs hoping to become law professors (one has a UVA JD and a Yale LLM, and one has a Berkeley JD and a Stanford LLM). They both did become professors, but they also had pretty significant and impressive experience as well, and one was highly published and one had done very high profile work. They also both started at the very bottom, teaching legal research and writing, which is in no way shape or form a job where you are actually a law professor. It's the lowest type of adjunct position there is and most people do it for fun, or while in transition, or something. It isn't a great stepping stone to becoming a professor because so few are going to be able to make the leap from it. But I do know those two people did. But you aren't going to get that job going from JD to LLM to teaching LR&W, you need experience first, and that means practicing law. And some law professors don't have LLMs at all, they are just famous or highly published. There is an SJD degree as well which is a research based degree more like a Phd. Some law professors have that, but not many. And there is the very, very rare professor with a somehow-relevant Phd. I'd say about half my law professors at my top tier school just had a JD, and about half had an LLM as well (or they had a law degree from another country and an LLM). Some SJDs and Phds were sprinkled in there, but not many.

And there is no funding for LLM programs like there is for Phd programs -- LLM programs are a cash cow for law schools. So ... they are quite expensive. (An LLM is also what international attorneys hoping to practice in the US get).

So ... I'm not going to say that carving out a career as a law professor is impossible for OP's child. It's not impossible. But it's probably almost impossible. And she'd either need to practice law for awhile (at a very high level -- BigLaw or DOJ), or publish like mad (possibly even a book or books in addition to law review articles) before even seeking academic work out. And the JD needs to be from a top school -- that goes without saying.

If you look through the faculty bios at the top law schools, you will find that in addition to the JD, a surprising % of them also have a PhD in a related field such as philosophy or political science.

That’s not to say the PhD was instrumental in getting them the professorship, but a lot of them sure do have advanced degrees in fields other than law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I heard about cases of “full ride” to the very best law schools, like UChicago. I guess it’s extremely hard to get those but I am not sure about the details.

I was offered a full ride scholarship to UVA but it wasn’t financial aid. It was a scholarship program for a very small number of students (like 5 per year), based on merit. Probably a number of schools have something similar. I don’t think that’s what you’re asking about though.

[Anonymous]

It's not a T14 but George Mason is a state school and gave scholarships to 92% of its students when I went there. I paid about 10K for my JD, and had a job lined up for after graduation b/c the school is so well connected to NOVA practices.

[Anonymous]

Early Retired Biglaw partner here. A couple of points.

1. Other posters are correct - there’s really no such thing as “need based” financial aid for law school. Many law schools offer merit based scholarships, but they are not based on financial need. If your daughter decides to go to law school and does not get offered sufficient merit scholarships to cover the cost, she will have to take out loans. That’s how it works.

2. I would never advise anyone who loves to learn for learning’s sake to go to law school. It is a grind. It requires an entirely different set of skills to master the content and expectations. It is in no way, shape, or form similar to the academic environment of either undergraduate school or a Master’s/PhD program. I would only advise a student to go to law school if they are truly interested in being a lawyer or working in a closely related field, can attend a top 30 school at a minimum. and they can do it without having to incur serious debt.