Can a friend group be toxic for some people but not for others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

[Anonymous]

Find a new hobby. Expensive hobbies attract a fair amount of snobby people looking to prove they are better than others. Of course it would be toxic.

[Anonymous]

I notice that you said upfront that the rumors about her were untrue. So at least from your viewpoint, what happened to her was based on a falsehood. Maybe the bullies *felt* like it was true based on their jealousies and insecurities, at least in essence, but that tells me that at least a couple of people in the group are not to be trusted - that they don't have the character, maturity, and self-awareness I would want in a friend.

But it's a group of 15 people, so you may decide that you can be a part of it without being close to everyone in it. Group dynamics are tricky, and we can all say confidently that we'd never ignore our conscience or go along with bullying, but the truth is that we probably do turn a blind eye to situations where we don't want the hassle. I'm part of a friend group with a woman who appears to be a professional victim, and I've seen her stories morph from a minor interaction that was kind of her fault to an egregious attack on her that's practically restraining order worthy. And since it's about 10 of us, I don't know what my responsibility is. It would be pretty disruptive for me to say, "Um actually, that's not how you told the story the first time." So I just ignore those conversations, mostly, because I want to keep the friend group -- it adds value to my life. But would I trust the compulsive liar with my secrets? Definitely not.

With your situation, I would definitely be wary. It they did it to her, they could do it to you. I would hold those particular woman at arms' length. But it would be a shame to give up your hobby because of them. I do like the idea of standing up for Kelly next time she comes up . . . it may free some of the others up to do the same. And yes, it may cause more drama and divisions, but I'd rather know sooner than later if that is coming down the road for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

+1 OP seems like a thoughtful person who is trying way harder than most to come to terms with a situation she’s not comfortable with. Most of you critics wouldn’t have been the instruments of justice for Kelly you imagine either.

OP, I think you are slowly priming yourself to leave this group and find/found another, and I applaud you and also your sister for nudging you along. And I love that you discussed this with your sister and she had the take she did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

+1 OP seems like a thoughtful person who is trying way harder than most to come to terms with a situation she’s not comfortable with. Most of you critics wouldn’t have been the instruments of justice for Kelly you imagine either.

OP, I think you are slowly priming yourself to leave this group and find/found another, and I applaud you and also your sister for nudging you along. And I love that you discussed this with your sister and she had the take she did.

I'm not sure many people have argued OP should try to get "justice" for Kelly. More that if OP silently accepts what is pretty obviously bullying (spreading false rumors and freezing someone out of the group), she is complicit. OP can tell herself she's not involved, but if she heard these rumors and saw Kelly being ignored or getting the cold shoulder from others, but neither reached out to Kelly nor said anything on her behalf (even "everyone knows that rumour isn't true") then she participated in ostracizing Kelly. And OP knows this, which is why she's uncomfortable.

Bullies need people like OP to get away with their campaigns against others-- people who will quietly accept the bullying as long as it's not directed at them. The bully is counting on people like OP to think "I don't want to be involved" or "that doesn't sound right but not my place to say" or "huh I feel bad for her but there's not really anything I can do." Useful idiots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’re missing a critical detail. Why was Kelly kicked out? I agree the targets social awkwardness can precipitate this, but so can jealousy. Is Kelly very pretty? Wealthy?

Why would this matter?

+1

PP. I realize now this looks like I’m trying to blame Kelly. I’m not. I’ve been Kelly twice, once in high school and again in graduate school, so it probably reflects my own ruminations about my personal experiences.

In my case, it was long simmering, deep seated jealousy. (It took me years to admit this, because who wants to be the girl who thinks everyone is jealous of her?!) In both cases, I had something another person wanted (supportive parents and then a strong career + high earning spouse), had a minor misunderstanding or disappointment, and got totally iced out of a group. It hurts, very deeply. I spent years wondering what had happened. It took me a long time accept that those people had disliked me for a very long time and when they finally got a chance to push me out, even over something trivial, they seized it.

This is fairly common. This is why it's dangerous to socialize with people who have a noticeable gap in socioeconomic standing or anything status based. They will never see you as a sympathetic figure if you have more than them in some area. Been there, done that, learned my lesson.

PP. Sadly, it’s a lesson I’ve had to learn too. It’s unfortunate. In both cases, the “mean girl” wasn’t the stereotypical queen bee. It was the somewhat quiet nerdy girl and the stocky, athletic girl who was seen as one of the guys. I think that’s what led to people co-signing their bad behavior - they were perceived as the social underdog compared to me. (Nevermind, for example, that both had parents more educated than mine. Mine were less well off, but more emotionally supportive. ) I was shocked at the total lack of sympathy I received + how people bought their side of events, hook line and sinker. I think the socioeconomic part was huge to your point. Lesson learned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’re missing a critical detail. Why was Kelly kicked out? I agree the targets social awkwardness can precipitate this, but so can jealousy. Is Kelly very pretty? Wealthy?

Why would this matter?

+1

PP. I realize now this looks like I’m trying to blame Kelly. I’m not. I’ve been Kelly twice, once in high school and again in graduate school, so it probably reflects my own ruminations about my personal experiences.

In my case, it was long simmering, deep seated jealousy. (It took me years to admit this, because who wants to be the girl who thinks everyone is jealous of her?!) In both cases, I had something another person wanted (supportive parents and then a strong career + high earning spouse), had a minor misunderstanding or disappointment, and got totally iced out of a group. It hurts, very deeply. I spent years wondering what had happened. It took me a long time accept that those people had disliked me for a very long time and when they finally got a chance to push me out, even over something trivial, they seized it.

This is fairly common. This is why it's dangerous to socialize with people who have a noticeable gap in socioeconomic standing or anything status based. They will never see you as a sympathetic figure if you have more than them in some area. Been there, done that, learned my lesson.

PP. Sadly, it’s a lesson I’ve had to learn too. It’s unfortunate. In both cases, the “mean girl” wasn’t the stereotypical queen bee. It was the somewhat quiet nerdy girl and the stocky, athletic girl who was seen as one of the guys. I think that’s what led to people co-signing their bad behavior - they were perceived as the social underdog compared to me. (Nevermind, for example, that both had parents more educated than mine. Mine were less well off, but more emotionally supportive. ) I was shocked at the total lack of sympathy I received + how people bought their side of events, hook line and sinker. I think the socioeconomic part was huge to your point. Lesson learned.

In some cases, yes. In your example, unclear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

+1 OP seems like a thoughtful person who is trying way harder than most to come to terms with a situation she’s not comfortable with. Most of you critics wouldn’t have been the instruments of justice for Kelly you imagine either.

OP, I think you are slowly priming yourself to leave this group and find/found another, and I applaud you and also your sister for nudging you along. And I love that you discussed this with your sister and she had the take she did.

I'm not sure many people have argued OP should try to get "justice" for Kelly. More that if OP silently accepts what is pretty obviously bullying (spreading false rumors and freezing someone out of the group), she is complicit. OP can tell herself she's not involved, but if she heard these rumors and saw Kelly being ignored or getting the cold shoulder from others, but neither reached out to Kelly nor said anything on her behalf (even "everyone knows that rumour isn't true") then she participated in ostracizing Kelly. And OP knows this, which is why she's uncomfortable.

Bullies need people like OP to get away with their campaigns against others-- people who will quietly accept the bullying as long as it's not directed at them. The bully is counting on people like OP to think "I don't want to be involved" or "that doesn't sound right but not my place to say" or "huh I feel bad for her but there's not really anything I can do." Useful idiots.

You're literally calling people names while lecturing about OP not immediately recognizing the situation and taking a stand. Food for thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

What are the races of Kelly, the other members of the group, and you, OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

What are the races of Kelly, the other members of the group, and you, OP?

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is possible. Social dynamics are complicaated and Kelly may have triggered someone in the wrong way. Ostracizing, othering, scapegoating an individual are unfortunately common social phenomena. Under the right circumstances even nice people can behave appallingly.
Also, you find out a lot about people when a crisis hits. Kelly experienced a crisis (manufactured or otherwise) and the true mettle of everyone in the group was exposed as a result. And when that happens, and you see that the people who meant a lot to you really don't care about you one way or another, it can be very soul crushing.

You are only responsible for your own actions. If you were normal and kind to Kelly then I would not feel guilty. If you can reach out to her and be kind now, perhaps it's not too late.

[Anonymous]

"Yes, of course. I witnessed this at my workplace. I learned from my experience that poor communicators, those who don't understand subtle cues/hints and social undercurrents, are the most likely to get ostracized by a certain type of hyper-sensitive woman, who perceive their faux-pas and occasional awkwardness as intentional rudeness, and try to push them out."

OMG this is me! I don't do "subtle" and it's gotten me in trouble my whle life!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

+1 OP seems like a thoughtful person who is trying way harder than most to come to terms with a situation she’s not comfortable with. Most of you critics wouldn’t have been the instruments of justice for Kelly you imagine either.

OP, I think you are slowly priming yourself to leave this group and find/found another, and I applaud you and also your sister for nudging you along. And I love that you discussed this with your sister and she had the take she did.

I'm not sure many people have argued OP should try to get "justice" for Kelly. More that if OP silently accepts what is pretty obviously bullying (spreading false rumors and freezing someone out of the group), she is complicit. OP can tell herself she's not involved, but if she heard these rumors and saw Kelly being ignored or getting the cold shoulder from others, but neither reached out to Kelly nor said anything on her behalf (even "everyone knows that rumour isn't true") then she participated in ostracizing Kelly. And OP knows this, which is why she's uncomfortable.

Bullies need people like OP to get away with their campaigns against others-- people who will quietly accept the bullying as long as it's not directed at them. The bully is counting on people like OP to think "I don't want to be involved" or "that doesn't sound right but not my place to say" or "huh I feel bad for her but there's not really anything I can do." Useful idiots.

+1. This happened last year in my neighborhood with a former friend group. There was an issue, and one husband and wife began bullying another couple that they were formerly friends with. Untrue rumors at the bus stop, social media posts, gossip, things of that nature. The bullies are a jealous and controlling type. I was on the outside, but saw many people silently go along and not stand up for the people being bullied because they didn't want to be the next target. A year later, the neighborhood friend group is nowhere what it used to be. Bullies get away with things like what happened to "Kelly" because they know people don't want to be involved and will remain silent and complicit. Nobody wants to be the next victim of the bully and the next one ostracized, so they will turn the other eye and say "I don't want to be involved", but they are involved by allowing the cruel bullying behavior to continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

+1 OP seems like a thoughtful person who is trying way harder than most to come to terms with a situation she’s not comfortable with. Most of you critics wouldn’t have been the instruments of justice for Kelly you imagine either.

OP, I think you are slowly priming yourself to leave this group and find/found another, and I applaud you and also your sister for nudging you along. And I love that you discussed this with your sister and she had the take she did.

I'm not sure many people have argued OP should try to get "justice" for Kelly. More that if OP silently accepts what is pretty obviously bullying (spreading false rumors and freezing someone out of the group), she is complicit. OP can tell herself she's not involved, but if she heard these rumors and saw Kelly being ignored or getting the cold shoulder from others, but neither reached out to Kelly nor said anything on her behalf (even "everyone knows that rumour isn't true") then she participated in ostracizing Kelly. And OP knows this, which is why she's uncomfortable.

Bullies need people like OP to get away with their campaigns against others-- people who will quietly accept the bullying as long as it's not directed at them. The bully is counting on people like OP to think "I don't want to be involved" or "that doesn't sound right but not my place to say" or "huh I feel bad for her but there's not really anything I can do." Useful idiots.

You're literally calling people names while lecturing about OP not immediately recognizing the situation and taking a stand. Food for thought.

PP here. Fair enough. I didn't view it as me calling someone an idiot, though. I was talking about how bullies view people who stand by silently. I think bullies count on people to want to stay out of things and to feel like they don't know enough about a situation to intervene. They think they are staying above the fray but are actually facilitating the bullying because their silence looks like permission to both the bully and the victim.

It's not that I think OP or others who do this are idiots, but I think the choice to tolerate this behavior from "friends" turns you into a tool for others to do harm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that Kelly became very depressed after these rumors spread, and especially when she started being excluded or treated coldly/rudely by others in the group. She chose to quit the hobby (which was a big deal -- it's an expensive hobby she'd spent years getting good at, but it's a small community and it's pretty much impossible to do without running into people from this friend group) and she ultimately severed her friendships with everyone in the group. While she didn't tell me this directly, one of the people close to her told me that she was in therapy, on anti-depressants, and experiencing suicidal ideation, which was why she chose to make a clean break. It was also when Covid started, so it was an easy excuse to just cut everyone out.

But the people who participated in the gossip/shunning her view it differently -- they think she was being dramatic, that she expected the group to chase after her and apologize, and they think it's kind of funny no one did. The people who think this have mellowed a bit on it, and aren't as nasty when her name comes up. But it's still an attitude "oh yeah, Kelly was weird, she didn't really fit in with us."

I'm struggling because I see both sides of this.

You’re struggling because you want these people’s approval more than you want to pay the price associated with living your values. It’s unfortunate.

+1. you're "struggling" because deep down you feel some guilt and shame -- both for how kelly was treated and for the cowardice that keeps you around these people.

This is a bit harsh. We are all in toxic groups at some point, either work, family, PTA, etc. We have reasons for not immediately leaving them- if we ever do- even when we notice they are toxic. If I had a hobby I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't leave the Kelly hater group. But they would be a peripheral group, not one that I would invest in emotionally.

+1 OP seems like a thoughtful person who is trying way harder than most to come to terms with a situation she’s not comfortable with. Most of you critics wouldn’t have been the instruments of justice for Kelly you imagine either.

OP, I think you are slowly priming yourself to leave this group and find/found another, and I applaud you and also your sister for nudging you along. And I love that you discussed this with your sister and she had the take she did.

I'm not sure many people have argued OP should try to get "justice" for Kelly. More that if OP silently accepts what is pretty obviously bullying (spreading false rumors and freezing someone out of the group), she is complicit. OP can tell herself she's not involved, but if she heard these rumors and saw Kelly being ignored or getting the cold shoulder from others, but neither reached out to Kelly nor said anything on her behalf (even "everyone knows that rumour isn't true") then she participated in ostracizing Kelly. And OP knows this, which is why she's uncomfortable.

Bullies need people like OP to get away with their campaigns against others-- people who will quietly accept the bullying as long as it's not directed at them. The bully is counting on people like OP to think "I don't want to be involved" or "that doesn't sound right but not my place to say" or "huh I feel bad for her but there's not really anything I can do." Useful idiots.

+1. This happened last year in my neighborhood with a former friend group. There was an issue, and one husband and wife began bullying another couple that they were formerly friends with. Untrue rumors at the bus stop, social media posts, gossip, things of that nature. The bullies are a jealous and controlling type. I was on the outside, but saw many people silently go along and not stand up for the people being bullied because they didn't want to be the next target. A year later, the neighborhood friend group is nowhere what it used to be. Bullies get away with things like what happened to "Kelly" because they know people don't want to be involved and will remain silent and complicit. Nobody wants to be the next victim of the bully and the next one ostracized, so they will turn the other eye and say "I don't want to be involved", but they are involved by allowing the cruel bullying behavior to continue.

9:18 here and this is what I was trying to say. You think you're avoiding drama by not saying anything when people like this behave this way, but you are actually encouraging the drama because every time someone dies this stuff with no one saying "hey, I don't support that," it just makes them more confident that they can do it again.

This is how bullies amass power. They start small but if everyone turns their heads and acts like it's fine, they realize they have the power to hurt people in this way. OP gave Kelly's bullies power by saying and doing nothing while this woman was lied about and ostracized, and had what sounds like a mental health crisis. It's important for OP to understand the role her silence played *and continues to play* in empowering the people who spread those rumors and got Kelly ousted from the group.

Even if OP never sees Kelly again, speaking up about this behavior would let others in the group know that OP, at least, doesn't condone it. But in order to do that, OP has to actually be willing to hold those people accountable for their behavior, and it doesn't sound like she will be able to do that.