Touched Out: Is Motherhood a Scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am watching a friend of mine try to juggle her aging parents and her husband's aging parents and I swear they are having the same arguments they had when they had toddlers. "You have no idea what's involved in taking your father to the bank. you think I can just pick him up at the nursing home and put him in the car. I have to take all these things with me and then I have to negotiate with him about his walker, and then he needs to be home in time to have a nap." And then her husband accuses her of whining. He says it's no big deal because he' has never done it.

And every day after work, she has to deal with all this stuff. And she has to remember all the old people's doctor's appointments, and their medications and whether anyone needs new pajamas -- and her husband acts like it all just magically gets done. And then her husband accuses her of whining.

And she talks about how she's exhausted and she literally never gets a break and how she doesn't have time for her own healthcare or to exercise, etc. And then her husband accuses here of whining.

if you think it's over once your kids are self-sufficient, guess what? It's not. This is round two. And
that's kind of the point -- Men just do this clueless, obliviousness number on us, and they never learn.

Why is she managing his parents? Let him do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is too bad is that although I connect with some of the points made about the "scam," the patriarchy, etc. in the momverse, this stuff all feels like it is written by moms of very young kids.

Now that my kids are teens, the balance with my DH is better, we are at different plces in our careers (mine will never recover from changes I made for my kids, but that is ok and I still want the flexibility while they are home). Now, unlike when they were toddlers and all over me, I want my kids to want to spend time with me, and I am already getting a little worried about the empty nest years.

I mean, the stuff about being touched out is definitely specific to the experience of taking care of kids 0-5. That's also when the childcare crisis is most critical, and it's when women get the worst deal in terms of the labor that goes into caring for kids that age.

I also think it's important to talk about those years because that is really when the lack of appreciation for the work of parenting is most apparent. We have a cultural believe in the US that caring for young children is easy, not intellectual, and that people who choose to do it don't deserve respect. This belief applies to SAHMs, nannies, preschool teachers, daycare workers, and even working moms, who experience a host of strange dualities where their parenting work is demeaned or ignored while their professional work is praised, yet if the actual hard work of parenting kids every gets in the way of professional work (evidence that actually parenting is hard), then they are criticized for ignoring their "important" job. It's maddening.

It gets easier as kids get older because parenting teens doesn't have the same cultural stink on it. We view parenting teens as more valuable because we view teens as closer to adults, and therefore their problems and development are taken more seriously. This attitude is called "adults" and it's actually a big part of why the US has such a major crisis with regards to childcare -- we don't care about small children. Other cultures who value children, and the experience of childhood for its own sake and not merely as preparation for adulthood, tend to do a much better job with supporting families of young kids and therefore creating better experiences for moms and dads (and sometimes better equity in marriages, though not always).

So one question you might ask is why your DH started stepping up more as your kids got older. What was it about the nature of parenting a 12 or 13 year old that your DH felt more comfortable with, as opposed to parenting a 3 or 4 year old? The answer to that actually tells us a lot about how we conceptualize parenting, work, and what matters.

I was working only very part time in those years (by design) and he was working a very demanding schedule. We have both become way more senior and have different work situations now. In fact, he has more flexibility so he handles more driving, etc during the weekdays. So it is not just his "comfort." Things become easier to split when kids get older. Not letting him or other men off the hook, but life is different career-wise for many of us at 30, 40 and 50. And parenting changes for everyone over that time. The time when the kids are little is the hardest for everyone involved. I wish the moms who wrote these pieces had a little more perspective. They all seem to have kids aged 2-6.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am watching a friend of mine try to juggle her aging parents and her husband's aging parents and I swear they are having the same arguments they had when they had toddlers. "You have no idea what's involved in taking your father to the bank. you think I can just pick him up at the nursing home and put him in the car. I have to take all these things with me and then I have to negotiate with him about his walker, and then he needs to be home in time to have a nap." And then her husband accuses her of whining. He says it's no big deal because he' has never done it.

And every day after work, she has to deal with all this stuff. And she has to remember all the old people's doctor's appointments, and their medications and whether anyone needs new pajamas -- and her husband acts like it all just magically gets done. And then her husband accuses her of whining.

And she talks about how she's exhausted and she literally never gets a break and how she doesn't have time for her own healthcare or to exercise, etc. And then her husband accuses here of whining.

if you think it's over once your kids are self-sufficient, guess what? It's not. This is round two. And
that's kind of the point -- Men just do this clueless, obliviousness number on us, and they never learn.

Why is she managing his parents? Let him do it.

SAHMs often wind up segueing from childcare to elder care because they "have the time" as the kids go to school. I have a friend who went back to work when her youngest was in 1st specifically because she read the writing on the wall in terms of how she'd be pushed into elder care by not only her husband but her siblings. It wasn't what she signed up for -- she loved being home with her kids and taking care of their household, but driving often ungrateful or even abusive elders to appointments, taking care of their homes, and working with their doctors wasn't how she wanted to spend the next 10-15 years of her life.

She's sad now that her kids are in aftercare and she's tired all the time and it's harder to go on vacation and summers, in particular, are much more difficult. But it forced both families to actually pay for elder care and to split the remaining work equitably among the adult kids in that family, instead of leaving all of it to my friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will tell you what is a scam - that motherhood is not a full time job in addition to your paying full time job. I think the women's liberation movement sold women the idea that women can do it all. It's exhausting. It has devalued mothers. Sahm's are even attacked as worthless by other women. Women have brainwashed about their value.

Yup. You see it all day every day on this very website, written by women who think of themselves as feminists with a capital F.

Feminism has devalued mothers?
Mothers have always been devalued by society (free labor). At least we have choices to get out of it now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will tell you what is a scam - that motherhood is not a full time job in addition to your paying full time job. I think the women's liberation movement sold women the idea that women can do it all. It's exhausting. It has devalued mothers. Sahm's are even attacked as worthless by other women. Women have brainwashed about their value.

Yup. You see it all day every day on this very website, written by women who think of themselves as feminists with a capital F.

Feminism has devalued mothers?
Mothers have always been devalued by society (free labor). At least we have choices to get out of it now.

I feel it’s the opposite. Being a housewife used to be an accepted job. Try quitting your job at 30 without kids to be a housewife. Women are now expected to earn money AND have kids.

I’m ready for the “but women always worked.”

Back in the day, mothers were home in the suburbs. Families often only had one car. Daycares didn’t exist. Seriously the average woman didn’t work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will tell you what is a scam - that motherhood is not a full time job in addition to your paying full time job. I think the women's liberation movement sold women the idea that women can do it all. It's exhausting. It has devalued mothers. Sahm's are even attacked as worthless by other women. Women have brainwashed about their value.

Yup. You see it all day every day on this very website, written by women who think of themselves as feminists with a capital F.

Feminism has devalued mothers?
Mothers have always been devalued by society (free labor). At least we have choices to get out of it now.

I feel it’s the opposite. Being a housewife used to be an accepted job. Try quitting your job at 30 without kids to be a housewife. Women are now expected to earn money AND have kids.

I’m ready for the “but women always worked.”

Back in the day, mothers were home in the suburbs. Families often only had one car. Daycares didn’t exist. Seriously the average woman didn’t work.

..and were not held in the same regard as the average working man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will tell you what is a scam - that motherhood is not a full time job in addition to your paying full time job. I think the women's liberation movement sold women the idea that women can do it all. It's exhausting. It has devalued mothers. Sahm's are even attacked as worthless by other women. Women have brainwashed about their value.

Yup. You see it all day every day on this very website, written by women who think of themselves as feminists with a capital F.

Feminism has devalued mothers?
Mothers have always been devalued by society (free labor). At least we have choices to get out of it now.

I feel it’s the opposite. Being a housewife used to be an accepted job. Try quitting your job at 30 without kids to be a housewife. Women are now expected to earn money AND have kids.

I’m ready for the “but women always worked.”

Back in the day, mothers were home in the suburbs. Families often only had one car. Daycares didn’t exist. Seriously the average woman didn’t work.

Lower class and women of color were working. Not everyone lived in the suburbs.

However I agree that housework and childcare are a job. Two in fact. So working moms are really juggling three things that are all “work.”

[Anonymous]

I think both of you have a point. Agree that women as a demographic were devalued by patriarchal systems that kept them out of paid work or participating in intellectual or professional work except in "pink collar" roles like secretary or nurse (which also had less power than they do now). I am grateful to the work of feminists for fighting for women to have access to professional careers and, importantly, the educations that enable them to have them. I don't want to live in a world where women can't be doctors or go to business school. We can't go back there.

But I also agree that we continue to devalue care work that continues to be primarily done by women. From a feminist perspective, it should be viewed as problematic that a mother who who becomes a doctor will generally just shift the work of childcare and housework onto other women, for no or low pay (nannies, housekeepers, and female family members). Just as women previously made men's work possible by tending to their homes and children (and to the men themselves, let's not forget all the work women have done over the centuries to feed, clothe, type notes, entertain clients, etc.), women CONTINUE to facilitate professional work of other women.

I don't think this means feminism was wrong to fight for women to be allowed into the professional and academic worlds. I think it means that feminism is nowhere near done in addressing this issue. And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

+1000

I teach high school. My work is valued as a middle class profession as our society has deemed it valuable to teach adolescents things. But despite paying as much as my mortgage for daycare, my 3 year olds teacher makes much much less.

That sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

+1000

I teach high school. My work is valued as a middle class profession as our society has deemed it valuable to teach adolescents things. But despite paying as much as my mortgage for daycare, my 3 year olds teacher makes much much less.

That sucks.

There is a weird motivation for keeping the pay of daycare workers, nannies, and preschool teachers low -- if the cost of childcare exceeds the mother's salary, there is more pressure for her to stay home. So inexpensive childcare is necessary for women to be able to work.

Other countries handle this by greatly subsidizing childcare. In the US we don't, which means that if we want childcare costs to stay lower than pay for the average woman, then we have to continue to pay childcare workers less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think both of you have a point. Agree that women as a demographic were devalued by patriarchal systems that kept them out of paid work or participating in intellectual or professional work except in "pink collar" roles like secretary or nurse (which also had less power than they do now). I am grateful to the work of feminists for fighting for women to have access to professional careers and, importantly, the educations that enable them to have them. I don't want to live in a world where women can't be doctors or go to business school. We can't go back there.

But I also agree that we continue to devalue care work that continues to be primarily done by women. From a feminist perspective, it should be viewed as problematic that a mother who who becomes a doctor will generally just shift the work of childcare and housework onto other women, for no or low pay (nannies, housekeepers, and female family members). Just as women previously made men's work possible by tending to their homes and children (and to the men themselves, let's not forget all the work women have done over the centuries to feed, clothe, type notes, entertain clients, etc.), women CONTINUE to facilitate professional work of other women.

I don't think this means feminism was wrong to fight for women to be allowed into the professional and academic worlds. I think it means that feminism is nowhere near done in addressing this issue. And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

Childcare workers should be fairly compensated, I agree. But I'm not sure why it's a problem or should be a source of guilt that women are the ones doing those jobs as other women are working at other jobs. The vast majority of construction workers are men and without them we couldn't live in houses. I mean, so what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think both of you have a point. Agree that women as a demographic were devalued by patriarchal systems that kept them out of paid work or participating in intellectual or professional work except in "pink collar" roles like secretary or nurse (which also had less power than they do now). I am grateful to the work of feminists for fighting for women to have access to professional careers and, importantly, the educations that enable them to have them. I don't want to live in a world where women can't be doctors or go to business school. We can't go back there.

But I also agree that we continue to devalue care work that continues to be primarily done by women. From a feminist perspective, it should be viewed as problematic that a mother who who becomes a doctor will generally just shift the work of childcare and housework onto other women, for no or low pay (nannies, housekeepers, and female family members). Just as women previously made men's work possible by tending to their homes and children (and to the men themselves, let's not forget all the work women have done over the centuries to feed, clothe, type notes, entertain clients, etc.), women CONTINUE to facilitate professional work of other women.

I don't think this means feminism was wrong to fight for women to be allowed into the professional and academic worlds. I think it means that feminism is nowhere near done in addressing this issue. And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

Childcare workers should be fairly compensated, I agree. But I'm not sure why it's a problem or should be a source of guilt that women are the ones doing those jobs as other women are working at other jobs. The vast majority of construction workers are men and without them we couldn't live in houses. I mean, so what?

NP. That’s not the argument. Construction workers are being paid a fair wage that takes into account the demand for and value of what they’re building.

What is problematic is when a grandma, SIL or oldest sibling is pitching in to watch kids for free from 3:30-6 pm until working moms get home from work, or when a SAHM is the one driving the carpool at 4 pm because the working mom is at the office. Or someone is being paid cash off the books as a nanny or cleaner, or the daycare worker is making $14/hour to watch 5 kids when the parents pay the center $2500/month/kid. The mom (and dad!) can be at the office because of other women’s low or unpaid roles.

Everyone should feel guilty…or admit that they don’t think people who take care of children deserve much compensation for it. We’ve decided that there is an actual value to making widgets or even just BSing in an office, and that keeping children alive has less value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think both of you have a point. Agree that women as a demographic were devalued by patriarchal systems that kept them out of paid work or participating in intellectual or professional work except in "pink collar" roles like secretary or nurse (which also had less power than they do now). I am grateful to the work of feminists for fighting for women to have access to professional careers and, importantly, the educations that enable them to have them. I don't want to live in a world where women can't be doctors or go to business school. We can't go back there.

But I also agree that we continue to devalue care work that continues to be primarily done by women. From a feminist perspective, it should be viewed as problematic that a mother who who becomes a doctor will generally just shift the work of childcare and housework onto other women, for no or low pay (nannies, housekeepers, and female family members). Just as women previously made men's work possible by tending to their homes and children (and to the men themselves, let's not forget all the work women have done over the centuries to feed, clothe, type notes, entertain clients, etc.), women CONTINUE to facilitate professional work of other women.

I don't think this means feminism was wrong to fight for women to be allowed into the professional and academic worlds. I think it means that feminism is nowhere near done in addressing this issue. And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

Childcare workers should be fairly compensated, I agree. But I'm not sure why it's a problem or should be a source of guilt that women are the ones doing those jobs as other women are working at other jobs. The vast majority of construction workers are men and without them we couldn't live in houses. I mean, so what?

I mean, you answered your own question. Childcare workers are not fairly compensated. So even though I am all for celebrating the great strides women have made in the professional sphere, but I think celebrating that without looking at who now cares for the children (hint: it's NEVER men), and how those workers are compensated and treated, would be a failure in terms of feminism.

Also, to make this a bit thornier, I think it's important to consider the many, many professional women whose careers are compromised because the cost and difficulty of obtaining childcare pushes even women with strong education credentials and professional ambition into mommy-tracked careers for lower pay and less prestige. If we are looking at the economic power of women as a group, these losses are also examples of how we haven't really solved the problem of "women's work" being devalued, so much as we've just hidden the ball a bit. A bunch of professional women working the double shift is not exactly progress, and I think that is specifically the "scam" that is being referenced in the interview.

I have more thoughts on this, including thoughts on how every PTA is dominated by women (in many cases, women with full time jobs) and how that often makes me think about how this is yet another sphere that rests on the idea of women working for free. Just for example, at our school, the PTA fundraising is responsible for major line items in the school's budget, including multiple paraprofessionals, the ability to subsidize art and music programming, field trips, classroom supplies, you name it. And that fundraising happens because the mostly female PTA dedicates hours of their lives every year, time away from both paid work AND their families, to get that money raised. It's tedious, thankless work -- organizing fundraising events, calling businesses for financial or in-kind donations, organizing an auction, soliciting and managing other volunteers, and on and on. But that work employed people, educates children, makes the school more functional as a service to the community. So women are basically performing a government function (this is a public school) for free.

I mean... tell me again about how there's non scam and you just need to marry a man who does the dishes to solve this problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am watching a friend of mine try to juggle her aging parents and her husband's aging parents and I swear they are having the same arguments they had when they had toddlers. "You have no idea what's involved in taking your father to the bank. you think I can just pick him up at the nursing home and put him in the car. I have to take all these things with me and then I have to negotiate with him about his walker, and then he needs to be home in time to have a nap." And then her husband accuses her of whining. He says it's no big deal because he' has never done it.

And every day after work, she has to deal with all this stuff. And she has to remember all the old people's doctor's appointments, and their medications and whether anyone needs new pajamas -- and her husband acts like it all just magically gets done. And then her husband accuses her of whining.

And she talks about how she's exhausted and she literally never gets a break and how she doesn't have time for her own healthcare or to exercise, etc. And then her husband accuses here of whining.

if you think it's over once your kids are self-sufficient, guess what? It's not. This is round two. And
that's kind of the point -- Men just do this clueless, obliviousness number on us, and they never learn.

She doesn’t have to do all the elder care. I don’t manage my MIL. Not my mom. I have parents and split that work with my brother. No is a complete sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think both of you have a point. Agree that women as a demographic were devalued by patriarchal systems that kept them out of paid work or participating in intellectual or professional work except in "pink collar" roles like secretary or nurse (which also had less power than they do now). I am grateful to the work of feminists for fighting for women to have access to professional careers and, importantly, the educations that enable them to have them. I don't want to live in a world where women can't be doctors or go to business school. We can't go back there.

But I also agree that we continue to devalue care work that continues to be primarily done by women. From a feminist perspective, it should be viewed as problematic that a mother who who becomes a doctor will generally just shift the work of childcare and housework onto other women, for no or low pay (nannies, housekeepers, and female family members). Just as women previously made men's work possible by tending to their homes and children (and to the men themselves, let's not forget all the work women have done over the centuries to feed, clothe, type notes, entertain clients, etc.), women CONTINUE to facilitate professional work of other women.

I don't think this means feminism was wrong to fight for women to be allowed into the professional and academic worlds. I think it means that feminism is nowhere near done in addressing this issue. And we do need to overcome the fact that many professional women have simply internalized the attitudes of professional men in demeaning the work of childcare and housework as unimportant compared to their jobs.

Childcare workers should be fairly compensated, I agree. But I'm not sure why it's a problem or should be a source of guilt that women are the ones doing those jobs as other women are working at other jobs. The vast majority of construction workers are men and without them we couldn't live in houses. I mean, so what?

I mean, you answered your own question. Childcare workers are not fairly compensated. So even though I am all for celebrating the great strides women have made in the professional sphere, but I think celebrating that without looking at who now cares for the children (hint: it's NEVER men), and how those workers are compensated and treated, would be a failure in terms of feminism.

Also, to make this a bit thornier, I think it's important to consider the many, many professional women whose careers are compromised because the cost and difficulty of obtaining childcare pushes even women with strong education credentials and professional ambition into mommy-tracked careers for lower pay and less prestige. If we are looking at the economic power of women as a group, these losses are also examples of how we haven't really solved the problem of "women's work" being devalued, so much as we've just hidden the ball a bit. A bunch of professional women working the double shift is not exactly progress, and I think that is specifically the "scam" that is being referenced in the interview.

I have more thoughts on this, including thoughts on how every PTA is dominated by women (in many cases, women with full time jobs) and how that often makes me think about how this is yet another sphere that rests on the idea of women working for free. Just for example, at our school, the PTA fundraising is responsible for major line items in the school's budget, including multiple paraprofessionals, the ability to subsidize art and music programming, field trips, classroom supplies, you name it. And that fundraising happens because the mostly female PTA dedicates hours of their lives every year, time away from both paid work AND their families, to get that money raised. It's tedious, thankless work -- organizing fundraising events, calling businesses for financial or in-kind donations, organizing an auction, soliciting and managing other volunteers, and on and on. But that work employed people, educates children, makes the school more functional as a service to the community. So women are basically performing a government function (this is a public school) for free.

I mean... tell me again about how there's non scam and you just need to marry a man who does the dishes to solve this problem?

Amen. I hate this about the PTA and it’s why I didn’t join.