NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

+1 That's why red states have the same problems as blue states.

Like the big 6'6" 270 pound 17 year old in Florida who attacked a special aide and knocked her to the floor. As she was unconscious he continued to attack her by kicking and hitting her in the head. He was arrested and is being tried as an adult. But if the legal system hadn't gotten involved a special education team could have decided it was due to his disability and then there is no punishment, no expulsion.

The violence against schools staff is out of control. My husband came home last night upset that an 8th grader is back at his school. He beat up a crossing guard and attacked two teachers. But he is in special ed under emotionally disturbed so the school is stuck with him. The student is smart enough to figure out there is nothing they can do to him so he wanders the school whenever he wants, is physically and verbally abusive and incredibly disruptive. Students are terrified of this kid as well as staff.

Students displaying those types of behaviors should be in a special class or school and not freely walking the halls.

[Anonymous]

As a simple issue of supply and demand, they just need to increase teacher pay. A lot of jobs are demanding and a PITA - mine certainly is, but I am relatively highly compensated. Increase the pay for teachers significantly, and more people will be willing to stay in the profession. I find the focus on what teachers are "worth" in terms of the work they do to be off base. It doesn't matter. People were freaking out that managers at some gas station in Georgia were getting paid more than lawyers, but if that is what it takes to get someone willing to do the job, that's how it is.

[Anonymous]

Middle school and high school violence is out of control. Over the past 10 years there has been a reduction in juvenile incarceration by over 70%. I don’t understand where the money is going that used to be spent on incarceration. It isn’t going to help the kids who are violent. Instead nothing happens to them. They are still enrolled in local high schools because so many continuation schools closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a simple issue of supply and demand, they just need to increase teacher pay. A lot of jobs are demanding and a PITA - mine certainly is, but I am relatively highly compensated. Increase the pay for teachers significantly, and more people will be willing to stay in the profession. I find the focus on what teachers are "worth" in terms of the work they do to be off base. It doesn't matter. People were freaking out that managers at some gas station in Georgia were getting paid more than lawyers, but if that is what it takes to get someone willing to do the job, that's how it is.

The schools around her have enough staff, certainly they are staffed at a level that ratcheting up teacher pay for recruitment isn't needed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Middle school and high school violence is out of control. Over the past 10 years there has been a reduction in juvenile incarceration by over 70%. I don’t understand where the money is going that used to be spent on incarceration. It isn’t going to help the kids who are violent. Instead nothing happens to them. They are still enrolled in local high schools because so many continuation schools closed.

This sounds like one of those anecdotal things that people know to be true -- just like they knew violence was out of control in society even as violent crime had dropped dramatically since the 90s and like they knew child abduction or teen sex or teen drinking were out of control. People get these vibes about how things are getting worse even in areas where they're better than they used to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

+1

And even if it's true that teaching isn't uniquely frustrating, I don't think that means that teachers' complaints aren't valid. I know it can get annoying when somebody complains and they don't do anything about it, but think about what that means: your kids won't have teachers. It's PUBLIC school so the better solution is for parents to truly learn what the problems are and lobby for better conditions when possible. There are probably solvable problems going on in your district that would increase teacher retention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

Schools are adequately funded, in fact, better funded than most of the world. But the funds are misused. Schools can’t and shouldn’t function as the provider of a days worth of food, therapies, counselling, medical needs, clothing closet, etc. School is an educational institution and needs to start functioning solely as such. Majority of educational funds are inappropriately allocated for social welfare purposes.

[Anonymous]

As a simple issue of supply and demand, they just need to increase teacher pay. A lot of jobs are demanding and a PITA - mine certainly is, but I am relatively highly compensated. Increase the pay for teachers significantly, and more people will be willing to stay in the profession. I find the focus on what teachers are "worth" in terms of the work they do to be off base. It doesn't matter. People were freaking out that managers at some gas station in Georgia were getting paid more than lawyers, but if that is what it takes to get someone willing to do the job, that's how it is.


The schools around her have enough staff, certainly they are staffed at a level that ratcheting up teacher pay for recruitment isn't needed

Not in our district. My son is missing teachers in two subjects and his friends are also missing teachers in multiple different subjects. Where do you live?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

Schools are adequately funded, in fact, better funded than most of the world. But the funds are misused. Schools can’t and shouldn’t function as the provider of a days worth of food, therapies, counselling, medical needs, clothing closet, etc. School is an educational institution and needs to start functioning solely as such. Majority of educational funds are inappropriately allocated for social welfare purposes.

Students can't function adequately as educational institutions if the students don't have counseling, medical services, and food. Generally speaking those other areas of the world you're talking about have social safety nets that take care of those needs so schools don't have to. Also the majority of education funds go to payroll, and the majority of that is teachers and admin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a simple issue of supply and demand, they just need to increase teacher pay. A lot of jobs are demanding and a PITA - mine certainly is, but I am relatively highly compensated. Increase the pay for teachers significantly, and more people will be willing to stay in the profession. I find the focus on what teachers are "worth" in terms of the work they do to be off base. It doesn't matter. People were freaking out that managers at some gas station in Georgia were getting paid more than lawyers, but if that is what it takes to get someone willing to do the job, that's how it is.

BuT My TaXeS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

Schools are adequately funded, in fact, better funded than most of the world. But the funds are misused. Schools can’t and shouldn’t function as the provider of a days worth of food, therapies, counselling, medical needs, clothing closet, etc. School is an educational institution and needs to start functioning solely as such. Majority of educational funds are inappropriately allocated for social welfare purposes.

Students can't function adequately as educational institutions if the students don't have counseling, medical services, and food. Generally speaking those other areas of the world you're talking about have social safety nets that take care of those needs so schools don't have to. Also the majority of education funds go to payroll, and the majority of that is teachers and admin.

Schools would function so much better if they actually focused on what the should be focusing on- education. All the other non school related social things that schools take on are crap and not even helpful. It is just a money and time waste. Students aren’t any better off for these sub par “services”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

Schools are adequately funded, in fact, better funded than most of the world. But the funds are misused. Schools can’t and shouldn’t function as the provider of a days worth of food, therapies, counselling, medical needs, clothing closet, etc. School is an educational institution and needs to start functioning solely as such. Majority of educational funds are inappropriately allocated for social welfare purposes.

Student assistance should be budgeted separately from teacher and staff compensation. The two should not be looked at as a mixed bag, at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

I agree about the discipline but I think you're naive to think that their other complaints are petty and incidental. There are huge systemic problems with our education system that teachers are forced to grapple with. Schools are not adequately funded, particularly when viewed in the context of our other inadequately funded social safety net programs. Even as teachers are underpaid, schools are forced to pick up the slack in non-educational areas as well. Right wing policymakers are trying to side-step dealing with these inadequacies with programs like vouchers and charter schools; but this is foolish. None of the successful educational systems in other parts of the world use vouchers or charters.

Schools are adequately funded, in fact, better funded than most of the world. But the funds are misused. Schools can’t and shouldn’t function as the provider of a days worth of food, therapies, counselling, medical needs, clothing closet, etc. School is an educational institution and needs to start functioning solely as such. Majority of educational funds are inappropriately allocated for social welfare purposes.

Yes, schools here actually have TOO MUCH money, that’s the problem. They get high on their own power and there are expectations that since we’re giving them SO MUCH money then they need to address other issues.

The cost of educating one student for one year is higher here in the US than in any other country in the world, by far, sometimes by 10x!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

Do you realize teachers don’t sit at a desk staring at a computer all day like you do at your job? When I was a teacher I never sat down, never had time to check email let alone respond to it until after hours because I was…teaching.

PP you are quoting. I love how you assume that my job entails being at a desk all day. It does not. Some days, I am not in front of my computer at all and I respond to all emails after hours. I get pulled in a million directions a day ... just like a teacher. And I could chill out that an email wasn't replied to in 24 hours if it didn't turn into a week+ after a reminder email. That is my experience with teachers (minus maybe one).