NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

Are you giving new presentations that you had to create every day for 5+ hrs? I doubt it. Teachers aren't sitting at a desk doing other work when emails come in. They are delivering one act plays that they wrote every day all day. They get to emails after all of the teaching part is over. You get to emails during your work day.

[Anonymous]

I've been thinking about teaching in my golden years. I'm more afraid of being shot, catching something from an unvaxxed kid, or being targeted in some way by easily triggered parents.

Plus the pay is terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about teaching in my golden years. I'm more afraid of being shot, catching something from an unvaxxed kid, or being targeted in some way by easily triggered parents.

Plus the pay is terrible.

I always thought I would end my career as a teacher. Maybe teaching MS or HS math. But the pay combined with the discipline issues make it seem like an unrealistic dream.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about teaching in my golden years. I'm more afraid of being shot, catching something from an unvaxxed kid, or being targeted in some way by easily triggered parents.

Plus the pay is terrible.

I always thought I would end my career as a teacher. Maybe teaching MS or HS math. But the pay combined with the discipline issues make it seem like an unrealistic dream.

+1

Same here. I could accept the pay (probably) but the disciplinary issues are a giant no for me. Just not worth it.

[Anonymous]

I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

+1 That's why red states have the same problems as blue states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

+1 That's why red states have the same problems as blue states.

Like the big 6'6" 270 pound 17 year old in Florida who attacked a special aide and knocked her to the floor. As she was unconscious he continued to attack her by kicking and hitting her in the head. He was arrested and is being tried as an adult. But if the legal system hadn't gotten involved a special education team could have decided it was due to his disability and then there is no punishment, no expulsion.

The violence against schools staff is out of control. My husband came home last night upset that an 8th grader is back at his school. He beat up a crossing guard and attacked two teachers. But he is in special ed under emotionally disturbed so the school is stuck with him. The student is smart enough to figure out there is nothing they can do to him so he wanders the school whenever he wants, is physically and verbally abusive and incredibly disruptive. Students are terrified of this kid as well as staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

Right but they are saying that communication with parents and the admin part is too much. I want my kids teacher teaching, learning new things, trying new things, researching different techniques, working 1:1, doing lesson plans, grading and actually LOOKING at it and then following up 1:1 with that student or in small groups that have the same problem. They spend too much time on testing and parent coordination to do those things. Their job is in front of the students and the students work. This other crap is the 2nd job. Its not the same job. Its a related job.

Im just wondering whether you understand the dynamics of teaching vs a private sector job. You as a private sector employee have your boss, your customer/clients right? Who is the customer/client relationship with a teacher and who is the boss? You are acting as if an email to a client = email to a parent.

DP but a lot of jobs have various constituents who are not your actual boss but to whom you have some accountability. Most public sector jobs have some amount of interaction with regular citizens and you don't work for them directly, but you have deal with them and are accountable to them. It's not just something in teaching.

Even in the private sector, a lot of jobs have layers of people to whom you are accountable -- direct bosses, corporate boards, clients, internal clients, advertisers and corporate sponsors, event participants, and so on and so forth. In the last 25 years, every job I've been in has had this. And yes, responding to questions and dealing with frustration/unhappiness from these constituents can be burdensome and take you away from your "actual" job.

Teaching is just not that different from other jobs in this respect. It is different in other ways. Namely, in the relationship between teachers and students, who are minors. And while all/most public sector employees deal with this, the way that what a teacher does (what they teach and how they teach it) is determined by political whims and fights is pretty unique. I also think this is one of the biggest differences between teaching today and teaching 40 years ago. Teachers today have so little leeway in how they choose to teach their kids. A lot of the independence and creativity that used to be inherent in the job has been sucked out, and I think that's a real shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

Do you realize teachers don’t sit at a desk staring at a computer all day like you do at your job? When I was a teacher I never sat down, never had time to check email let alone respond to it until after hours because I was…teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

Oh no, a whole paragraph...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These things are fixable and would keep me in this job. If I didn’t have a kid in college, I would’ve quit years ago.

1) Ridiculous amount of testing. So many hours are wasted on this. If I’m testing, I’m not teaching.

2) Student behavior. If a student causes a disruption in a classroom and normal techniques don’t work in ending it, teachers should be allowed to have that child removed. The entire class shouldn’t be held hostage.

3) Curriculum. All teachers should meet and choose appropriate curriculum for their students. There should be flexibility because what works in one school or classroom doesn’t necessarily work everywhere.

4) Work load. If you want me to spend hours on administrative tasks like entering grades in some spreadsheet or platform, give me time other than my planning time to do it or hire us secretaries.

5) Anyone who comes in to observe better be an expert ready to give actual suggestions for improvement and be prepared to model them if needed. I’m tired of tons of suits coming in from central office to observe and then not know what they are talking about.

6) Adequate staffing. I’m shouldn’t have to sub for others because admin can’t find subs. Up the pay big time and fix it.

That’s all for now. My brain is tired.

As a parent, I can get behind everyone of these and would support school board candidates who supported them as well. I'd back union efforts to get these into schools as well. All of this is very reasonable and I think would make life better for teachers AND students -- their interests are usually pretty aligned.

Unfortunately, you are the minority voter. A school board candidate thoughtfully backing all of this would usually lose to a candidate cynically and/or delusionally railing against gay books or something to do with bathrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with some earlier posters that talking about emails is a bit of a red herring. Every profession (and presumably teachers want to be considered a profession not just a job) deals with long hours and annoying emails.

The difference for me, and frankly the thing they should actually be complaining about, is the behavior of the kids and especially the violence. That should be 100% unacceptable. No student or teacher should go to school knowing there’s a non-insignificant chance that they’ll be hurt today.

If teachers rallied around that one issue only then they’d get full support from the community - and therefore the lawmakers - and we could actually keep teachers (and kids!) safe. I think that would help a lot.

No, they wouldn't get full support from the community. We don't have support from admins on this. We don't have support from school boards on this. Why do you imagine "the community" would support us? There'd be push back from all kinds of groups of people.

+1. The people supporting discipline are reviled as racist or ableist or not respectful of the kid's lived experience or something.

Yep. The behaviour is kids is pretty much the only (and it is huge) valid complain teachers have and it absolutely needs to change how schools deal with it. It is sad that it wont likely change bc everyone is too afraid it isn’t PC, and the backlash they would receive.

All the other teacher complains are pretty much complaints everyone has about their job

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

Oh no, a whole paragraph...

You're missing the point. Parents shouldn't be hovering and emailing over every single slight their children might experience during the school day.