Algebra in 7th v 8th

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

This is true. My DD’s advanced math class sets her schedule and she is often with the same cohort of kids for English, Bio, etc. It actually annoys her because none of her friends are in her class!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

Ah, those people with brown eyes and black hair, I get it. Good thing us whites are blessed with white privilege so we don't need to work hard in math.

(Seriously, if this weren't an anonymous forum, would you have made this comment in RL?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

Ah, those people with brown eyes and black hair, I get it. Good thing us whites are blessed with white privilege so we don't need to work hard in math.

(Seriously, if this weren't an anonymous forum, would you have made this comment in RL?)

DP. Probably not. But the reality is that no one wants to be an only in a class, or is a business, with all of one race or ethnicity or sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Khan Academy course challenges.

AoPS course quizzes / placement test.

Does your kid "get" math easily the first time they see it, as easily as learning new words when they read a book?
Does your kid enjoy doing extra not required math at home? If not, don't do 7th. Kid will burn out in high school for no benefit.

Schoool math class should be a breeze, reinforcing what they already know and gently stretching. Acceleration / enrichment needs to be self-paced or on the side, so that if the kid falls behind o their studies temporarily, they won't drown in current of the main 5-year curriculum that will not pause for them.

School math should be a breeze??? What world do you live in? Forcing kids who have no interest in math to do calculus in 11th grade isn’t fun or a breeze by any measure. Yet it’s required to do in order to have a complete HS education. In fact - if anything is a breeze, the kid probably isn’t challenged appropriately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

Ah, those people with brown eyes and black hair, I get it. Good thing us whites are blessed with white privilege so we don't need to work hard in math.

(Seriously, if this weren't an anonymous forum, would you have made this comment in RL?)

DP. Probably not. But the reality is that no one wants to be an only in a class, or is a business, with all of one race or ethnicity or sex.

Ah, so no STEM jobs for your kid then? Unless you are talking about the military, your kids options are going to be limited if you raise them to be a snowflake.
- ethnic woman who was the only one in many, many engineering meetings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

Ah, those people with brown eyes and black hair, I get it. Good thing us whites are blessed with white privilege so we don't need to work hard in math.

(Seriously, if this weren't an anonymous forum, would you have made this comment in RL?)

DP. Probably not. But the reality is that no one wants to be an only in a class, or is a business, with all of one race or ethnicity or sex.

Ah, so no STEM jobs for your kid then? Unless you are talking about the military, your kids options are going to be limited if you raise them to be a snowflake.
- ethnic woman who was the only one in many, many engineering meetings.

Eh. I was one of two girls who started my BSEE degree program, the only girl that finished. I know what I'm talking about, as do you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

Ah, those people with brown eyes and black hair, I get it. Good thing us whites are blessed with white privilege so we don't need to work hard in math.

(Seriously, if this weren't an anonymous forum, would you have made this comment in RL?)

DP. Probably not. But the reality is that no one wants to be an only in a class, or is a business, with all of one race or ethnicity or sex.

Ah, so no STEM jobs for your kid then? Unless you are talking about the military, your kids options are going to be limited if you raise them to be a snowflake.
- ethnic woman who was the only one in many, many engineering meetings.

Eh. I was one of two girls who started my BSEE degree program, the only girl that finished. I know what I'm talking about, as do you.

Yes, I do know what I'm talking about My DD is on track to take the highest math classes she can take. It's just a class where she can learn. She doesn't need people who look like her in the class. I'm sure she gets enough bonding in other classes she takes like Band or after school activities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in FCPS where Algebra in 7th requires a 500+ on the Math 7 SOL and 91st+ percentile on the IAAT. We had heard advice from a 7th grade Algebra teacher to only take it if our child score 550+ on the SOL and 95th percentile or higher on the IAAT and DS was on board with that as he too was a little nervous to take a high school class in 5th grade. Turns out he got a 600 on the SOL and 99th on the IAAT so we were confident putting him in Algebra in 7th. He got an A as well as an A in Geometry the following year. So far, so good.

Great advice that should be mandatory.

OP here. It may be good advice but also makes me nervous. I’m not convinced that an extra year of possible crappy instruction is actually going to prepare him if algebra is only appropriate for 99% kids. There’s not some huge intellectual difference between 7th and 8th grade brains IMO so the implication is that 7th should be laying the foundation for algebra, and I’m just not sure that is true …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

This sounds like a cliche. Who or what is encouraging boys but not girls? Today's public schools to me seem pretty gender neutral, if for no other reason than to not get into deep waters politically. No teacher would openly treat boys and girls differently in my experience.

On the other hand, our DC is the only white female in her math class - many of her friends either hate math or do it at a much slower pace. This started, however, in the early ES years and, in multiple cases, *despite* those girls being encouraged by parents and teachers. They actively withdrew.

At the end of the day, though, I agree with the snowflake comment. If your child's sense of well-being depends on looking at others' race or gender you lack self-esteem and intellectual independence and we should all aim for our children to develop both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in FCPS where Algebra in 7th requires a 500+ on the Math 7 SOL and 91st+ percentile on the IAAT. We had heard advice from a 7th grade Algebra teacher to only take it if our child score 550+ on the SOL and 95th percentile or higher on the IAAT and DS was on board with that as he too was a little nervous to take a high school class in 5th grade. Turns out he got a 600 on the SOL and 99th on the IAAT so we were confident putting him in Algebra in 7th. He got an A as well as an A in Geometry the following year. So far, so good.

Great advice that should be mandatory.

OP here. It may be good advice but also makes me nervous. I’m not convinced that an extra year of possible crappy instruction is actually going to prepare him if algebra is only appropriate for 99% kids. There’s not some huge intellectual difference between 7th and 8th grade brains IMO so the implication is that 7th should be laying the foundation for algebra, and I’m just not sure that is true …

I mean, yes, there is. And also in later years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in FCPS where Algebra in 7th requires a 500+ on the Math 7 SOL and 91st+ percentile on the IAAT. We had heard advice from a 7th grade Algebra teacher to only take it if our child score 550+ on the SOL and 95th percentile or higher on the IAAT and DS was on board with that as he too was a little nervous to take a high school class in 5th grade. Turns out he got a 600 on the SOL and 99th on the IAAT so we were confident putting him in Algebra in 7th. He got an A as well as an A in Geometry the following year. So far, so good.

Great advice that should be mandatory.

OP here. It may be good advice but also makes me nervous. I’m not convinced that an extra year of possible crappy instruction is actually going to prepare him if algebra is only appropriate for 99% kids. There’s not some huge intellectual difference between 7th and 8th grade brains IMO so the implication is that 7th should be laying the foundation for algebra, and I’m just not sure that is true …

I mean, yes, there is. And also in later years.

Is there evidence on a relative age effect on math? I found this article indicating there is not by 8th grade: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303278722_Relative_Age_Effects_in_Mathematics_and_Reading_Investigating_the_Generalizability_across_Students_Time_and_Classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in FCPS where Algebra in 7th requires a 500+ on the Math 7 SOL and 91st+ percentile on the IAAT. We had heard advice from a 7th grade Algebra teacher to only take it if our child score 550+ on the SOL and 95th percentile or higher on the IAAT and DS was on board with that as he too was a little nervous to take a high school class in 5th grade. Turns out he got a 600 on the SOL and 99th on the IAAT so we were confident putting him in Algebra in 7th. He got an A as well as an A in Geometry the following year. So far, so good.

Great advice that should be mandatory.

OP here. It may be good advice but also makes me nervous. I’m not convinced that an extra year of possible crappy instruction is actually going to prepare him if algebra is only appropriate for 99% kids. There’s not some huge intellectual difference between 7th and 8th grade brains IMO so the implication is that 7th should be laying the foundation for algebra, and I’m just not sure that is true …

I mean, yes, there is. And also in later years.

Is there evidence on a relative age effect on math? I found this article indicating there is not by 8th grade: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303278722_Relative_Age_Effects_in_Mathematics_and_Reading_Investigating_the_Generalizability_across_Students_Time_and_Classes

It's more in terms of maturity and executive function. If the math is there, then at least they don't need to be learning and compensating for that too, in 7th grade. There's a big difference between 7th and 8th grade. And throughout high school. Smarts are important. So is executive function.