Algebra in 7th v 8th

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

Ah, those people with brown eyes and black hair, I get it. Good thing us whites are blessed with white privilege so we don't need to work hard in math.

(Seriously, if this weren't an anonymous forum, would you have made this comment in RL?)

DP. Probably not. But the reality is that no one wants to be an only in a class, or is a business, with all of one race or ethnicity or sex.

No one wants to be an only, but no one wants to be in a bad fit course either. You have have to make a tradeoff.

But if you want to be successful in school for the long haul, you shouldn't be avoiding things solely because those things are popular with Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

This sounds like a cliche. Who or what is encouraging boys but not girls? Today's public schools to me seem pretty gender neutral, if for no other reason than to not get into deep waters politically. No teacher would openly treat boys and girls differently in my experience.

On the other hand, our DC is the only white female in her math class - many of her friends either hate math or do it at a much slower pace. This started, however, in the early ES years and, in multiple cases, *despite* those girls being encouraged by parents and teachers. They actively withdrew.

At the end of the day, though, I agree with the snowflake comment. If your child's sense of well-being depends on looking at others' race or gender you lack self-esteem and intellectual independence and we should all aim for our children to develop both.

Asian parents encourage their girls to do math more than white parents do.

And it's the parents who are more focused on race boundaries than the kids are. Immigrant kids tend to cluster with their same-language peers, but kids who are native in English, and kids of parents who are native in English, don't self-segregate nearly as much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

This sounds like a cliche. Who or what is encouraging boys but not girls? Today's public schools to me seem pretty gender neutral, if for no other reason than to not get into deep waters politically. No teacher would openly treat boys and girls differently in my experience.

On the other hand, our DC is the only white female in her math class - many of her friends either hate math or do it at a much slower pace. This started, however, in the early ES years and, in multiple cases, *despite* those girls being encouraged by parents and teachers. They actively withdrew.

At the end of the day, though, I agree with the snowflake comment. If your child's sense of well-being depends on looking at others' race or gender you lack self-esteem and intellectual independence and we should all aim for our children to develop both.

Asian parents encourage their girls to do math more than white parents do.

And it's the parents who are more focused on race boundaries than the kids are. Immigrant kids tend to cluster with their same-language peers, but kids who are native in English, and kids of parents who are native in English, don't self-segregate nearly as much.

Wait, are you saying you know Asian kids that are not native speakers of English? They're extremely rare in my experiences. Most if not all Asian kids I know are American born native speakers, with the occasional just-came-from Korea exception.

Or are you talking about Spanish-speaking ESL students? I haven't seen them do math in significant numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Those liberal leaning districts are the ones offering a path for 6th graders to take Algebra 1. How many of those 138 do you think come from conservative districts in SWVA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Which school district is this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

What were the pass/proficient and pass/advanced # for those years?

I'm OK raising the bar for accelerated math tracks. Too many kids get pushed to accelerate too much too soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

What were the pass/proficient and pass/advanced # for those years?

I'm OK raising the bar for accelerated math tracks. Too many kids get pushed to accelerate too much too soon.

Eh. Requiring kids to be in the 99.9th percentile to access Algebra in 6th grade is the opposite of letting "too many kids get pushed to accelerate too much too soon." So many more kids would be perfectly capable. In FCPS, kids need a 145+ on the CogAT Q. This means they can't get any problems wrong in this section while taking the test in the 2nd grade. The system doesn't encourage people to retest in later grades, nor do they open extra pathways. Rather than overly restrictive gatekeeping that doesn't even relate well to readiness, it would make much more sense to let any kid who requests it take a M7H type final exam as a placement test. Those scoring above whatever threshold could enroll in Algebra the next year.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.[/quote]

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on. [/quote]
But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?[/quote]

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math. [/quote]

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. [b]Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are.[/b] They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female. [/quote]
This sounds like a cliche. Who or what is encouraging boys but not girls? Today's public schools to me seem pretty gender neutral, if for no other reason than to not get into deep waters politically. No teacher would openly treat boys and girls differently in my experience.

On the other hand, our DC is the only white female in her math class - many of her friends either hate math or do it at a much slower pace. This started, however, in the early ES years and, in multiple cases, *despite* those girls being encouraged by parents and teachers. They actively withdrew.

At the end of the day, though, I agree with the snowflake comment. If your child's sense of well-being depends on looking at others' race or gender you lack self-esteem and intellectual independence and we should all aim for our children to develop both.
[/quote]

Asian parents encourage their girls to do math more than white parents do.

And it's the parents who are more focused on race boundaries than the kids are. Immigrant kids tend to cluster with their same-language peers, but kids who are native in English, and kids of parents who are native in English, don't self-segregate nearly as much.
[/quote]
Wait, are you saying you know Asian kids that are not native speakers of English? They're extremely rare in my experiences. Most if not all Asian kids I know are American born native speakers, with the occasional just-came-from Korea exception.

Or are you talking about Spanish-speaking ESL students? I haven't seen them do math in significant numbers.
[/quote]

My school has kids that are more comfortable in a non-English language, for several languages. Chinese/Mandarin is in that group. I didn't say it was a majority or plurality of students whose parents are not native English speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

This sounds like a cliche. Who or what is encouraging boys but not girls? Today's public schools to me seem pretty gender neutral, if for no other reason than to not get into deep waters politically. No teacher would openly treat boys and girls differently in my experience.

On the other hand, our DC is the only white female in her math class - many of her friends either hate math or do it at a much slower pace. This started, however, in the early ES years and, in multiple cases, *despite* those girls being encouraged by parents and teachers. They actively withdrew.

At the end of the day, though, I agree with the snowflake comment. If your child's sense of well-being depends on looking at others' race or gender you lack self-esteem and intellectual independence and we should all aim for our children to develop both.

Asian parents encourage their girls to do math more than white parents do.

And it's the parents who are more focused on race boundaries than the kids are. Immigrant kids tend to cluster with their same-language peers, but kids who are native in English, and kids of parents who are native in English, don't self-segregate nearly as much.

Wait, are you saying you know Asian kids that are not native speakers of English? They're extremely rare in my experiences. Most if not all Asian kids I know are American born native speakers, with the occasional just-came-from Korea exception.

Or are you talking about Spanish-speaking ESL students? I haven't seen them do math in significant numbers.

My school has kids that are more comfortable in a non-English language, for several languages. Chinese/Mandarin is in that group. I didn't say it was a majority or plurality of students whose parents are not native English speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The [b]downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Not really seeing a downward trend here--especially since you only give raw numbers not percentage of enrolled students.
Also, you'd be a little more believable if you didn't throw out 'liberal leaning' crap--especially when the majority of students who enroll in Algebra in 6th are in 'liberal leaning' counties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Does your school's track contribute to this number, or are you outside VA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The [b]downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Not really seeing a downward trend here--especially since you only give raw numbers not percentage of enrolled students.
Also, you'd be a little more believable if you didn't throw out 'liberal leaning' crap--especially when the majority of students who enroll in Algebra in 6th are in 'liberal leaning' counties.

You're complaining about a lack of percentages, but then try to argue against by referring to a majority (in absolute numbers)? Sounds a bit contradictory. Even if the majority of students is in NoVA, the percentages in NoVA could well be lower.

Also, you seem angry and embarrassed. I'd be too if my party had supported VMPI's hate campaign ("Algebra is white privilege that must be given up", "Students have 'perceived' abilities" when they ace assessments tests and should be held back in "heterogeneous classrooms" until 9th grade, etc., etc.). We also know from other posters on DCUM that VMPI, though dead at the state level, has been having impact in NoVA counties, so my hypothesis is not far fetched.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The [b]downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Not really seeing a downward trend here--especially since you only give raw numbers not percentage of enrolled students.
Also, you'd be a little more believable if you didn't throw out 'liberal leaning' crap--especially when the majority of students who enroll in Algebra in 6th are in 'liberal leaning' counties.

You're complaining about a lack of percentages, but then try to argue against by referring to a majority (in absolute numbers)? Sounds a bit contradictory. Even if the majority of students is in NoVA, the percentages in NoVA could well be lower.

Also, you seem angry and embarrassed. I'd be too if my party had supported VMPI's hate campaign ("Algebra is white privilege that must be given up", "Students have 'perceived' abilities" when they ace assessments tests and should be held back in "heterogeneous classrooms" until 9th grade, etc., etc.). We also know from other posters on DCUM that VMPI, though dead at the state level, has been having impact in NoVA counties, so my hypothesis is not far fetched.

You are really going to argue that Democrats as a party should be embarrassed by VMPI?

Jan. 6
Charlottesville
Trump
Indictments
Merrick Garland not getting a a chance
Women’s health care
Book banning

There are much bigger things to be embarrassed about, VMPI didn’t actually go through or cause much damage.

So tired of having to bring all this up on school forums.