Algebra in 7th v 8th

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your kid LOVE math? Does it come extremely easy to them? Are they gifted in other areas? Then do the most advanced track. Otherwise I recommend Algebra in 8th. High school math becomes extremely challenging and kids really must enjoy the process & work independently from parents. ie- no handholding from mom or dad.

They come in looking scared when they see the huge older students

Does your school not have enough algebra 2 students for 9th graders to be in a different algebra class from juniors? I can't imagine combining those grades is a good idea from a social perspective. The juniors are likely to feel "dumb" for being in a class with freshmen and the freshmen are at risk of being the targets of the juniors' resentment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child who did Algebra in 6th and a child who did Algebra in 7th.

The benefit of a fast track is:

1. Avoiding boredom and being appropriately challenged.
2. Getting noticed positively for college admissions (although these days a lot of students take Algebra 1 in 7th, so in itself that's not newsworthy).

The disadvantages are:

1. Getting into difficulties later in the more advanced math classes. Age-old question: is it better to have straight As in an easy class, or Bs in a hard class?

It's not always possible to know in advance how your child will do. I'm the sort of person who is willing to try, and then support my kids with tutors, or teacher them myself at home, or, if need be, take a slower track (although that never happened).

There is no evidence for the claim that you "get into difficulties later" - it's politically motivated misinformation that was spread by, for instance, proponents of VMPI.

The longitudinal numbers show a different picture: students who are screened to take Algebra I earlier do better in it and they do better later. (Run SOL statistics, for instance.)

I know multiple kids who were identified as gifted, scored well, and accelerated in math by two years. They ended up taking a less adv math (not honors) because they were struggling. It made them hate math. Too many kids are being pushed to do algebra in 7th IMHO. There should be stricter standards for accelerating that much.

Nah, they should start Algebra earlier but offer a more applied/business/engineering but still honors version.

What do you mean? School algebra is applied. Hence the presence of word problems and the absence of things like the difference between range and codomain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child who did Algebra in 6th and a child who did Algebra in 7th.

The benefit of a fast track is:

1. Avoiding boredom and being appropriately challenged.
2. Getting noticed positively for college admissions (although these days a lot of students take Algebra 1 in 7th, so in itself that's not newsworthy).

The disadvantages are:

1. Getting into difficulties later in the more advanced math classes. Age-old question: is it better to have straight As in an easy class, or Bs in a hard class?

It's not always possible to know in advance how your child will do. I'm the sort of person who is willing to try, and then support my kids with tutors, or teacher them myself at home, or, if need be, take a slower track (although that never happened).

There is no evidence for the claim that you "get into difficulties later" - it's politically motivated misinformation that was spread by, for instance, proponents of VMPI.

The longitudinal numbers show a different picture: students who are screened to take Algebra I earlier do better in it and they do better later. (Run SOL statistics, for instance.)

I know multiple kids who were identified as gifted, scored well, and accelerated in math by two years. They ended up taking a less adv math (not honors) because they were struggling. It made them hate math. Too many kids are being pushed to do algebra in 7th IMHO. There should be stricter standards for accelerating that much.

Nah, they should start Algebra earlier but offer a more applied/business/engineering but still honors version.

They were struggling with both the concepts and pace. Two ended up with Bs or lower, I believe.

Offer algebra in 7th to only the very most capable kids. Current eval metrics aren’t working. Raise the bar.

Do the kids that get Bs retake algebra? While a good grade, would someone doing accelerated math want only a A for their high school transcript?

They do not retake the class, they earned a B. In FCPS the parents can ask for the grade to be expunged and the child would continue on to Geometry. I suspect that a child earning a B in Algebra H in 7th grade would be able to move to Math 7 Honors and then take Algebra Honors in 8th grade. Kids can tell pretty early in the school year if the math is going to be very challenging, a series of C’s or B’s on the first set of quizzes and/or tests would be a sign to drop a level if you are worried about a grade less then an A on a report card.

There are also a good number of colleges who won’t look down on a B in Algebra Honors in 7th grade. A “B” is a solid grade and the grade is weighted so it is not going to destroy a GPA. If you are set on trying for an Ivy League or top 20 school then you need to weigh 6 years of HS math on a transcript with Bs and 4-5 years of HS math with an A.

In the 10 minute of attention your application gets, they aren't "weighing" your middle school Algebra grade. They are looking at GPA and AP scores and 12th grade classes. Expungements MS grades that lower your GPA.
If you GPA is below 3.0 (so a B increases GPA), your GPA is already a lost cause, because no one cares if it is 2.95 or 2.98

DS got a B+ in Algebra in 7th which is a 3.3 (3.8 weighted). Is this a grade to keep or will it weigh down his HS GPA? We have a few weeks to decide and I don't know who to ask about this.

If you expect him to get a weighted GPA above 3.8 in HS expunge it, otherwise don't. Simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should probably look long term. Algebra in 7th means Calculus in 11th. Which seems crazy to me but lots of top kids around here do that, with the intention of something even harder in 12th and top colleges/STEM majors in college in mind. Does that sound right to your family?
I personally think math concepts for a bright child track well with brain development when they take algebra in 8th and Calculus in 12th. But depends on your long term goals.

Doesn't seem crazy to me. AP Calc BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th seem very helpful to students for college.

Can you expand on why AP Stats is helpful for college? Assuming student is going to a college that does not give credit for AP classes (looks at them for admission but doesn't count toward college credit itself). I am in the same position as OP; 6th grade DD just started pre-Algebra this year and will be in Algebra in 7th if she continues on this course. She's good at math but doesn't love it. She loves ELA/writing/theater/improv/singing. Older DS took Algebra in 8th, as did DH and I. I took AP Calc BC in 12th. Except for appearing in a category of the "highest performing math kids" is Stats really helpful? I'm truly curious to know bc it could be a factor in the decision to keep on the track for DD.

Sorry, haven't checked on this thread in a while so am late to respond. Stats to me is one of the most useful classes. I wish I had taken it in high school. I was a social science major but struggled with some of the quant stuff becuase I didn't have the stats background. I ended up taking stats after college (too hard to fit it in with my double major) and ultimately went on to do much more stats/econometrics in grad school. I use stats regularly in my job, and I wish I had had it earlier. We are in MCPS which regularly skips of stats material (because it's not on the MCAP), and I make my kid go back and do it.

She is taking algebra in 7th and is a very mathy kid - and really enjoys math as of now. In MCPS you have to take math every year of HS regardless of when you take Calc. Our plan is for her to take Calc BC junior year if she continues to be successful with math and then AP stats senior year, unless she wants to do multvariate (which I don't think is as helpful as stats).

IMO she would be better off taking a calc-based statistics class via DE. AP statistics isn't really sufficient for students who want to go into a stats-heavy field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should probably look long term. Algebra in 7th means Calculus in 11th. Which seems crazy to me but lots of top kids around here do that, with the intention of something even harder in 12th and top colleges/STEM majors in college in mind. Does that sound right to your family?
I personally think math concepts for a bright child track well with brain development when they take algebra in 8th and Calculus in 12th. But depends on your long term goals.

Doesn't seem crazy to me. AP Calc BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th seem very helpful to students for college.

Can you expand on why AP Stats is helpful for college? Assuming student is going to a college that does not give credit for AP classes (looks at them for admission but doesn't count toward college credit itself). I am in the same position as OP; 6th grade DD just started pre-Algebra this year and will be in Algebra in 7th if she continues on this course. She's good at math but doesn't love it. She loves ELA/writing/theater/improv/singing. Older DS took Algebra in 8th, as did DH and I. I took AP Calc BC in 12th. Except for appearing in a category of the "highest performing math kids" is Stats really helpful? I'm truly curious to know bc it could be a factor in the decision to keep on the track for DD.

Sorry, haven't checked on this thread in a while so am late to respond. Stats to me is one of the most useful classes. I wish I had taken it in high school. I was a social science major but struggled with some of the quant stuff becuase I didn't have the stats background. I ended up taking stats after college (too hard to fit it in with my double major) and ultimately went on to do much more stats/econometrics in grad school. I use stats regularly in my job, and I wish I had had it earlier. We are in MCPS which regularly skips of stats material (because it's not on the MCAP), and I make my kid go back and do it.

She is taking algebra in 7th and is a very mathy kid - and really enjoys math as of now. In MCPS you have to take math every year of HS regardless of when you take Calc. Our plan is for her to take Calc BC junior year if she continues to be successful with math and then AP stats senior year, unless she wants to do multvariate (which I don't think is as helpful as stats).

IMO she would be better off taking a calc-based statistics class via DE. AP statistics isn't really sufficient for students who want to go into a stats-heavy field.

Fortunately, the kids have 4 years of college after high school.

[Anonymous]

We are in FCPS where Algebra in 7th requires a 500+ on the Math 7 SOL and 91st+ percentile on the IAAT. We had heard advice from a 7th grade Algebra teacher to only take it if our child score 550+ on the SOL and 95th percentile or higher on the IAAT and DS was on board with that as he too was a little nervous to take a high school class in 5th grade. Turns out he got a 600 on the SOL and 99th on the IAAT so we were confident putting him in Algebra in 7th. He got an A as well as an A in Geometry the following year. So far, so good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in FCPS where Algebra in 7th requires a 500+ on the Math 7 SOL and 91st+ percentile on the IAAT. We had heard advice from a 7th grade Algebra teacher to only take it if our child score 550+ on the SOL and 95th percentile or higher on the IAAT and DS was on board with that as he too was a little nervous to take a high school class in 5th grade. Turns out he got a 600 on the SOL and 99th on the IAAT so we were confident putting him in Algebra in 7th. He got an A as well as an A in Geometry the following year. So far, so good.

Great advice that should be mandatory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child who did Algebra in 6th and a child who did Algebra in 7th.

The benefit of a fast track is:

1. Avoiding boredom and being appropriately challenged.
2. Getting noticed positively for college admissions (although these days a lot of students take Algebra 1 in 7th, so in itself that's not newsworthy).

The disadvantages are:

1. Getting into difficulties later in the more advanced math classes. Age-old question: is it better to have straight As in an easy class, or Bs in a hard class?

It's not always possible to know in advance how your child will do. I'm the sort of person who is willing to try, and then support my kids with tutors, or teacher them myself at home, or, if need be, take a slower track (although that never happened).

There is no evidence for the claim that you "get into difficulties later" - it's politically motivated misinformation that was spread by, for instance, proponents of VMPI.

The longitudinal numbers show a different picture: students who are screened to take Algebra I earlier do better in it and they do better later. (Run SOL statistics, for instance.)

I know multiple kids who were identified as gifted, scored well, and accelerated in math by two years. They ended up taking a less adv math (not honors) because they were struggling. It made them hate math. Too many kids are being pushed to do algebra in 7th IMHO. There should be stricter standards for accelerating that much.

Nah, they should start Algebra earlier but offer a more applied/business/engineering but still honors version.

What do you mean? School algebra is applied. Hence the presence of word problems and the absence of things like the difference between range and codomain.

That's not because it's applied, it's because codomain isn't particularly important until you get into mappings between differently shaped spaces like in Linear Algebra.

In Algebra 1, the codomain is so obvious as to not be worth naming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should probably look long term. Algebra in 7th means Calculus in 11th. Which seems crazy to me but lots of top kids around here do that, with the intention of something even harder in 12th and top colleges/STEM majors in college in mind. Does that sound right to your family?
I personally think math concepts for a bright child track well with brain development when they take algebra in 8th and Calculus in 12th. But depends on your long term goals.

Doesn't seem crazy to me. AP Calc BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th seem very helpful to students for college.

Can you expand on why AP Stats is helpful for college? Assuming student is going to a college that does not give credit for AP classes (looks at them for admission but doesn't count toward college credit itself). I am in the same position as OP; 6th grade DD just started pre-Algebra this year and will be in Algebra in 7th if she continues on this course. She's good at math but doesn't love it. She loves ELA/writing/theater/improv/singing. Older DS took Algebra in 8th, as did DH and I. I took AP Calc BC in 12th. Except for appearing in a category of the "highest performing math kids" is Stats really helpful? I'm truly curious to know bc it could be a factor in the decision to keep on the track for DD.

Sorry, haven't checked on this thread in a while so am late to respond. Stats to me is one of the most useful classes. I wish I had taken it in high school. I was a social science major but struggled with some of the quant stuff becuase I didn't have the stats background. I ended up taking stats after college (too hard to fit it in with my double major) and ultimately went on to do much more stats/econometrics in grad school. I use stats regularly in my job, and I wish I had had it earlier. We are in MCPS which regularly skips of stats material (because it's not on the MCAP), and I make my kid go back and do it.

She is taking algebra in 7th and is a very mathy kid - and really enjoys math as of now. In MCPS you have to take math every year of HS regardless of when you take Calc. Our plan is for her to take Calc BC junior year if she continues to be successful with math and then AP stats senior year, unless she wants to do multvariate (which I don't think is as helpful as stats).

In my view it’s best to take AP Statistics after Algebra 2 then Calculus BC (or AB depending on the likely major) as senior. Statistics is really useful early especially in lab science courses, and the extra year will help with learning algebra concepts in more depth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should probably look long term. Algebra in 7th means Calculus in 11th. Which seems crazy to me but lots of top kids around here do that, with the intention of something even harder in 12th and top colleges/STEM majors in college in mind. Does that sound right to your family?
I personally think math concepts for a bright child track well with brain development when they take algebra in 8th and Calculus in 12th. But depends on your long term goals.

Doesn't seem crazy to me. AP Calc BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th seem very helpful to students for college.

Can you expand on why AP Stats is helpful for college? Assuming student is going to a college that does not give credit for AP classes (looks at them for admission but doesn't count toward college credit itself). I am in the same position as OP; 6th grade DD just started pre-Algebra this year and will be in Algebra in 7th if she continues on this course. She's good at math but doesn't love it. She loves ELA/writing/theater/improv/singing. Older DS took Algebra in 8th, as did DH and I. I took AP Calc BC in 12th. Except for appearing in a category of the "highest performing math kids" is Stats really helpful? I'm truly curious to know bc it could be a factor in the decision to keep on the track for DD.

Sorry, haven't checked on this thread in a while so am late to respond. Stats to me is one of the most useful classes. I wish I had taken it in high school. I was a social science major but struggled with some of the quant stuff becuase I didn't have the stats background. I ended up taking stats after college (too hard to fit it in with my double major) and ultimately went on to do much more stats/econometrics in grad school. I use stats regularly in my job, and I wish I had had it earlier. We are in MCPS which regularly skips of stats material (because it's not on the MCAP), and I make my kid go back and do it.

She is taking algebra in 7th and is a very mathy kid - and really enjoys math as of now. In MCPS you have to take math every year of HS regardless of when you take Calc. Our plan is for her to take Calc BC junior year if she continues to be successful with math and then AP stats senior year, unless she wants to do multvariate (which I don't think is as helpful as stats).

In my view it’s best to take AP Statistics after Algebra 2 then Calculus BC (or AB depending on the likely major) as senior. Statistics is really useful early especially in lab science courses, and the extra year will help with learning algebra concepts in more depth.

But high school and AP lab science classes don't have Stats as a prereq, so they avoid doing anything that Stats would help with.
Algebra, Algebra 2 and Precalc have stats modules for the very basics.

Meanwhile, AP Physics C needs calculus as at least a coreq.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should probably look long term. Algebra in 7th means Calculus in 11th. Which seems crazy to me but lots of top kids around here do that, with the intention of something even harder in 12th and top colleges/STEM majors in college in mind. Does that sound right to your family?
I personally think math concepts for a bright child track well with brain development when they take algebra in 8th and Calculus in 12th. But depends on your long term goals.

Doesn't seem crazy to me. AP Calc BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th seem very helpful to students for college.

Can you expand on why AP Stats is helpful for college? Assuming student is going to a college that does not give credit for AP classes (looks at them for admission but doesn't count toward college credit itself). I am in the same position as OP; 6th grade DD just started pre-Algebra this year and will be in Algebra in 7th if she continues on this course. She's good at math but doesn't love it. She loves ELA/writing/theater/improv/singing. Older DS took Algebra in 8th, as did DH and I. I took AP Calc BC in 12th. Except for appearing in a category of the "highest performing math kids" is Stats really helpful? I'm truly curious to know bc it could be a factor in the decision to keep on the track for DD.

Sorry, haven't checked on this thread in a while so am late to respond. Stats to me is one of the most useful classes. I wish I had taken it in high school. I was a social science major but struggled with some of the quant stuff becuase I didn't have the stats background. I ended up taking stats after college (too hard to fit it in with my double major) and ultimately went on to do much more stats/econometrics in grad school. I use stats regularly in my job, and I wish I had had it earlier. We are in MCPS which regularly skips of stats material (because it's not on the MCAP), and I make my kid go back and do it.

She is taking algebra in 7th and is a very mathy kid - and really enjoys math as of now. In MCPS you have to take math every year of HS regardless of when you take Calc. Our plan is for her to take Calc BC junior year if she continues to be successful with math and then AP stats senior year, unless she wants to do multvariate (which I don't think is as helpful as stats).

In my view it’s best to take AP Statistics after Algebra 2 then Calculus BC (or AB depending on the likely major) as senior. Statistics is really useful early especially in lab science courses, and the extra year will help with learning algebra concepts in more depth.

But high school and AP lab science classes don't have Stats as a prereq, so they avoid doing anything that Stats would help with.
Algebra, Algebra 2 and Precalc have stats modules for the very basics.

Meanwhile, AP Physics C needs calculus as at least a coreq.

A student taking Calculus BC and Physics C is someone oriented towards a STEM career. If that the case I’d say it’s best to double AP statistics with precalculus.

For someone into humanities or social sciences it’s still better to do Statistics early, and save Calculus for senior year.

[Anonymous]

I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.