Algebra in 7th v 8th

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

What were the pass/proficient and pass/advanced # for those years?

I'm OK raising the bar for accelerated math tracks. Too many kids get pushed to accelerate too much too soon.

Eh. Requiring kids to be in the 99.9th percentile to access Algebra in 6th grade is the opposite of letting "too many kids get pushed to accelerate too much too soon." So many more kids would be perfectly capable. In FCPS, kids need a 145+ on the CogAT Q. This means they can't get any problems wrong in this section while taking the test in the 2nd grade. The system doesn't encourage people to retest in later grades, nor do they open extra pathways. Rather than overly restrictive gatekeeping that doesn't even relate well to readiness, it would make much more sense to let any kid who requests it take a M7H type final exam as a placement test. Those scoring above whatever threshold could enroll in Algebra the next year.

Where is the additional SOL data for those years? Link? This isn't enough data to draw conclusions.

And different school districts have different criteria for A1 in 6th. An appropriate placement test AND strict criteria would be ideal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The [b]downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Not really seeing a downward trend here--especially since you only give raw numbers not percentage of enrolled students.
Also, you'd be a little more believable if you didn't throw out 'liberal leaning' crap--especially when the majority of students who enroll in Algebra in 6th are in 'liberal leaning' counties.

You're complaining about a lack of percentages, but then try to argue against by referring to a majority (in absolute numbers)? Sounds a bit contradictory. Even if the majority of students is in NoVA, the percentages in NoVA could well be lower.

Also, you seem angry and embarrassed. I'd be too if my party had supported VMPI's hate campaign ("Algebra is white privilege that must be given up", "Students have 'perceived' abilities" when they ace assessments tests and should be held back in "heterogeneous classrooms" until 9th grade, etc., etc.). We also know from other posters on DCUM that VMPI, though dead at the state level, has been having impact in NoVA counties, so my hypothesis is not far fetched.

Stop pushing RWNJ propaganda.

This has been debated to death on here and you are just objectively wrong here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The [b]downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Not really seeing a downward trend here--especially since you only give raw numbers not percentage of enrolled students.
Also, you'd be a little more believable if you didn't throw out 'liberal leaning' crap--especially when the majority of students who enroll in Algebra in 6th are in 'liberal leaning' counties.

You're complaining about a lack of percentages, but then try to argue against by referring to a majority (in absolute numbers)? Sounds a bit contradictory. Even if the majority of students is in NoVA, the percentages in NoVA could well be lower.

Also, you seem angry and embarrassed. I'd be too if my party had supported VMPI's hate campaign ("Algebra is white privilege that must be given up", "Students have 'perceived' abilities" when they ace assessments tests and should be held back in "heterogeneous classrooms" until 9th grade, etc., etc.). We also know from other posters on DCUM that VMPI, though dead at the state level, has been having impact in NoVA counties, so my hypothesis is not far fetched.

You are really going to argue that Democrats as a party should be embarrassed by VMPI?

Jan. 6
Charlottesville
Trump
Indictments
Merrick Garland not getting a a chance
Women’s health care
Book banning

There are much bigger things to be embarrassed about, VMPI didn’t actually go through or cause much damage.

So tired of having to bring all this up on school forums.

PP continues to push lies and misinformation because she has nothing else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had a kid do each, it makes no difference in the long run or outcome whatsoever. Where it may make a difference for you is the cohort your child will be in classes with in your high school. It is worth it to aim for the top tier classes, but wither of your two options will be top tier enough. Where the schedule fits for math will dictate the schedule for other high school classes, so you get a lot of the same high achievers.

Not in our experience. Our older DD is in the “top” math cohort and by Alg2T, so many kids have dropped down a level the cohort is really small. Being able to eke out Alg1 in 7th is not a predictor of success later on.

But isn't this "small cohort" the one you want your child to be in?

Not really. At our school its mostly ethnic boys. Its not going to benefit her in anyway vs. just taking Algebra 1 in 8th. That's what we decided to have our second child too, even though she is just as good at math.

NP. My 8th grader is in precalc. She is one of three girls in a class of 28. She’s fine with it, but what the PP saying is unfortunately true. Sadly, girls are still not encouraged to excel in math in the early years like boys are. They are very much pushed in reading and writing though. Those highly accelerated classes at our school are predominantly female.

It's not lack of encouragement. It's lack of desire. And let's be honest, most boys don't want to either. You're focused on the other boys in her class but you're not seeing all the other girls and boys who said No thank you.

Different localities are obviously different. Where I live our advanced track has Algebra I in 6th, Geom in 7th, and Alg 2 in 8th (DE/Precalc then in 9th).
Every kid I talked to in this track is proud to be in it when they talk to their classmates. DC was very proud to have aced the IAAT with a 100% raw score. Those kids who didn't make the track (because of too low IAAT, for instance), are admiring and a little bit envious (I'm talking about the academically minded kids here, obviously not everyone). Ah, and then there was this boy who claimed to have intentionally done badly on the IAAT to not get into Algebra... yeah right.
Also, the school drops everyone lower than a B after 9 weeks (no one dropped, btw). The class that started Alg 1 in 6th (ca. 3% of the school) is complete and well in 7th. And although the SOL are pretty much useless when it comes to gauging mathematical understanding, we know from SOL statistics that 6th graders outperform 7th graders, which outperform 8th graders, which outperform 9th or later in both pass rate and advanced pass rate.

So the idea that kids would be pushed into these classes against their will is not something I have been personally able to observe. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I have seen is that they increase students' mathematical self-esteem and prowess (some, though not many, will move far beyond school math and do competitions like AMC8/10, MK, and MC). They are all in this group.

Are you in VA? You do use the word SOL. Did you know there were only 1-200 6th graders who took the Algebra SOL in all of Virginia last year?

I wouldn't have quoted SOL statistics if I weren't familiar with them

There were 138 6th graders taking it in 2022-23. Prior years were:

2018 139
2019 190
2021 194
2022 126
2023 136

The lowest pass rate in these years was 98.41% in 2022.

The [b]downward trend may be due to Covid, or it may be due to political headwinds in some liberal-leaning districts like FCPS who parroted the democratic party line set by VDoE officials (can you say VMPI).

What should the expected number be? Let's estimate 100,000 6th graders per year in VA (give or take +/-10k, I'm not taking the time to look up the number). 0.1% is 100 students.
I believe a healthy number (compared to other countries who have working systems of identifying gifted students and promoting their development) would be 3-5 times as many in an economy like Virginia.

Not really seeing a downward trend here--especially since you only give raw numbers not percentage of enrolled students.
Also, you'd be a little more believable if you didn't throw out 'liberal leaning' crap--especially when the majority of students who enroll in Algebra in 6th are in 'liberal leaning' counties.

You're complaining about a lack of percentages, but then try to argue against by referring to a majority (in absolute numbers)? Sounds a bit contradictory. Even if the majority of students is in NoVA, the percentages in NoVA could well be lower.

Also, you seem angry and embarrassed. I'd be too if my party had supported VMPI's hate campaign ("Algebra is white privilege that must be given up", "Students have 'perceived' abilities" when they ace assessments tests and should be held back in "heterogeneous classrooms" until 9th grade, etc., etc.). We also know from other posters on DCUM that VMPI, though dead at the state level, has been having impact in NoVA counties, so my hypothesis is not far fetched.

Stop pushing RWNJ propaganda.

This has been debated to death on here and you are just objectively wrong here.

I don't know what RWNJ stands for, and don't have time to google it, but I do have to chuckle about your use of "objectively wrong" here.
What do you think is "objectively wrong?" My quote that Algebra is part of white privilege that must be given up appears in the literature that VMPI cited, so you may want to look up what "objective" means. Ditto for the idea of "heterogeneous classes" in which no student could take Algebra before 9th. Those are facts (well, the actual thing never took place. What's a fact is that they wrote this down and tried to pursue it.)

And calling it a "hate campaign?" Well, that's clearly a subjective opinion, isn't it? But one that I can't get rid of whenever I recall the disgusting tone the VMPI operatives put forth towards advanced math students in their webinar videos (for those tuning in now, when the Democrats were in power in VA, they tried to implement ideas like California's Math Framework. Read Stanford Prof. Brian Conrad's recently published Atlantic article about what that would have entailed. They formed a group at VDoE - the very group that was supposed to set the new SOL standards - to push their views. After and in response to the gubernatorial election, their ideas were thankfully scrapped on the proverbial ash heap of history.)