Algebra in 7th v 8th

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son qualified to take Algebra in 7th but I heard the teacher was not that great and there wasn't a physical textbook but random pages online that they did. So I had my son do Honors 7 math plus AOPS Algebra after school. Honors 7 math was so easy he never really had homework so he had plenty of time to do AOPS instead.

So when he took Algebra in 8th it was a review and left him with really solid algebra skills. He took the next level algebra class in the evenings. He then took geometry in between 8th and 9th. So when he was in 9th and doing Honors Algebra 2 he had already been exposed to it the year before. He noticed some of his classmates who did Algebra in 7th really struggled in algebra 2 because they were shaky in some algebra topics.

This makes me sad. You had a great time with AoPS Algebra, and you noticed that school Algebra was insufficient for others. So why settle for the inferior summer version of school Geometry? I recommend doing something like AoPS Geometry to enhance that.

It kind of makes me laugh because their kid did SOOOO much outside tutoring to ensure math was easy. The kids in Alg. 2 who took alg in 7 may have to do a little bit of tutoring and find it hard, but the time they put into math overall is probably less AND they learn how to do something difficult. I see both as decent lessons about growing up.

What's so funny about taking time to learn?
"Finding it hard" isn't the gift you make it out to be, when it's a very basic level of material and it's a cracked foundation for the future. AoPS is a lot harder than school, but it builds the strong foundation you need to succeed.

+1. The AoPS curriculum (and probably RSM, too), is a lot harder. Kids whose only exposure to math is getting an A in an accelerated school Alg IH/Geom IH class are orders of magnitude behind kids who get all blue in AoPS. In everything: reasoning, speed, mathematical writing, breadth... In short, they don't know what they're missing - and unless they go in a mathy field, may never know. And if they do, their college professors will wonder why they chose this field.

DP. For anyone who is taking this seriously, don't. Taking Algebra privately the prior year is not necessary to learn and do well in Algebra. Same for Algebra II. And it's not necessary to do Aops or RSM before going into a math, science, or engineering field.

NP.
AoPS and RSM classes are not meant to be taught before doing the school version, and they're not meant to be a means for acceleration. Ideally, they should be a supplement, where a kid is taking Algebra in school and simultaneously taking AoPS Algebra to give the extra rigor and fill in any foundational gaps. I agree that it's not necessary to do AoPS or RSM before going into a STEM field, but it would undoubtedly help the kid have a greater understanding of the math and a much stronger foundation. In school math, too many kids become experts at applying the right algorithms to get the right answers without having a real understanding of the material. That will not work in AoPS classes.

You really are missing the whole point of AOPS. It absolutely is for acceleration, that is why Richard Rusczyk founded AOPS - for kids who loved math, and did exceptionally well in school so they were bored. It has morphed into something else for many people, but that is who the original audience was for- advanced kids who often did competition math. It was never intended to supplement math at school. For kids who get math and are brilliant at it, math at school is way too slow. So no, it is not meant to fill in foundational gaps.

That being said, I posted about my kid doing geometry in the summer. He is NOT a math prodigy, just a solid math student because he has put in the time. He is not going to be a math major or an engineering major. For him he really benefited from taking two years of algebra - first through AOPS then Algebra at school. No way was he going to do AOPS geometry. That book is hard! My nephew is a math whiz and was homeschooled for middle school using AOPS books at home. They were written so a math whiz can self study and read the books to learn. AOPS Geometry is a big step up from AOPS algebra and then AOPS intermediate Algebra is a big step up from Geometry. In 8th grade he did another Algebra 2 program at home while doing algebra 1 at school. Most kids doing AOPS intermediate algebra really, really like math and many are into contest math like Math Olympiad.

You just can't do precalc and calculus without a really solid algebra foundation. If you aren't sure your child is going to be with a really good teacher with a solid curriculum then I would reconsider algebra in 7th unless your kid is really good at math. I am not sure why the person wrote that my kid didn't learn to do something hard. AOPS algebra in 7th was hard as was intermediate algebra online at home (with a different program- not AOPS). What was easy was algebra 1 at school in 8th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son qualified to take Algebra in 7th but I heard the teacher was not that great and there wasn't a physical textbook but random pages online that they did. So I had my son do Honors 7 math plus AOPS Algebra after school. Honors 7 math was so easy he never really had homework so he had plenty of time to do AOPS instead.

So when he took Algebra in 8th it was a review and left him with really solid algebra skills. He took the next level algebra class in the evenings. He then took geometry in between 8th and 9th. So when he was in 9th and doing Honors Algebra 2 he had already been exposed to it the year before. He noticed some of his classmates who did Algebra in 7th really struggled in algebra 2 because they were shaky in some algebra topics.

This makes me sad. You had a great time with AoPS Algebra, and you noticed that school Algebra was insufficient for others. So why settle for the inferior summer version of school Geometry? I recommend doing something like AoPS Geometry to enhance that.

It kind of makes me laugh because their kid did SOOOO much outside tutoring to ensure math was easy. The kids in Alg. 2 who took alg in 7 may have to do a little bit of tutoring and find it hard, but the time they put into math overall is probably less AND they learn how to do something difficult. I see both as decent lessons about growing up.

What's so funny about taking time to learn?
"Finding it hard" isn't the gift you make it out to be, when it's a very basic level of material and it's a cracked foundation for the future. AoPS is a lot harder than school, but it builds the strong foundation you need to succeed.

+1. The AoPS curriculum (and probably RSM, too), is a lot harder. Kids whose only exposure to math is getting an A in an accelerated school Alg IH/Geom IH class are orders of magnitude behind kids who get all blue in AoPS. In everything: reasoning, speed, mathematical writing, breadth... In short, they don't know what they're missing - and unless they go in a mathy field, may never know. And if they do, their college professors will wonder why they chose this field.

DP. For anyone who is taking this seriously, don't. Taking Algebra privately the prior year is not necessary to learn and do well in Algebra. Same for Algebra II. And it's not necessary to do Aops or RSM before going into a math, science, or engineering field.

NP.
AoPS and RSM classes are not meant to be taught before doing the school version, and they're not meant to be a means for acceleration. Ideally, they should be a supplement, where a kid is taking Algebra in school and simultaneously taking AoPS Algebra to give the extra rigor and fill in any foundational gaps. I agree that it's not necessary to do AoPS or RSM before going into a STEM field, but it would undoubtedly help the kid have a greater understanding of the math and a much stronger foundation. In school math, too many kids become experts at applying the right algorithms to get the right answers without having a real understanding of the material. That will not work in AoPS classes.

We do RSM, and it is on track with what my kid (in the advanced track in MCPS) is doing in school through 7th (though RSM is much more challenging than anything MCPS offers in the accelerated courses). But after that RSM is a year ahead. The reason is that RSM breaks geometry into 3 years - you take it along with pre-algebra/algebra classes in 6th-8th. So in 8th grade my kid will finish geometry in RSM and also do algebra 2 in RSM, while in MCPS she will do Geometry that year. She won't take Algebra 2 until 9th in MCPS.

Blended algebra and geometry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son qualified to take Algebra in 7th but I heard the teacher was not that great and there wasn't a physical textbook but random pages online that they did. So I had my son do Honors 7 math plus AOPS Algebra after school. Honors 7 math was so easy he never really had homework so he had plenty of time to do AOPS instead.

So when he took Algebra in 8th it was a review and left him with really solid algebra skills. He took the next level algebra class in the evenings. He then took geometry in between 8th and 9th. So when he was in 9th and doing Honors Algebra 2 he had already been exposed to it the year before. He noticed some of his classmates who did Algebra in 7th really struggled in algebra 2 because they were shaky in some algebra topics.

This makes me sad. You had a great time with AoPS Algebra, and you noticed that school Algebra was insufficient for others. So why settle for the inferior summer version of school Geometry? I recommend doing something like AoPS Geometry to enhance that.

It kind of makes me laugh because their kid did SOOOO much outside tutoring to ensure math was easy. The kids in Alg. 2 who took alg in 7 may have to do a little bit of tutoring and find it hard, but the time they put into math overall is probably less AND they learn how to do something difficult. I see both as decent lessons about growing up.

What's so funny about taking time to learn?
"Finding it hard" isn't the gift you make it out to be, when it's a very basic level of material and it's a cracked foundation for the future. AoPS is a lot harder than school, but it builds the strong foundation you need to succeed.

+1. The AoPS curriculum (and probably RSM, too), is a lot harder. Kids whose only exposure to math is getting an A in an accelerated school Alg IH/Geom IH class are orders of magnitude behind kids who get all blue in AoPS. In everything: reasoning, speed, mathematical writing, breadth... In short, they don't know what they're missing - and unless they go in a mathy field, may never know. And if they do, their college professors will wonder why they chose this field.

DP. For anyone who is taking this seriously, don't. Taking Algebra privately the prior year is not necessary to learn and do well in Algebra. Same for Algebra II. And it's not necessary to do Aops or RSM before going into a math, science, or engineering field.

NP.
AoPS and RSM classes are not meant to be taught before doing the school version, and they're not meant to be a means for acceleration. Ideally, they should be a supplement, where a kid is taking Algebra in school and simultaneously taking AoPS Algebra to give the extra rigor and fill in any foundational gaps. I agree that it's not necessary to do AoPS or RSM before going into a STEM field, but it would undoubtedly help the kid have a greater understanding of the math and a much stronger foundation. In school math, too many kids become experts at applying the right algorithms to get the right answers without having a real understanding of the material. That will not work in AoPS classes.

We do RSM, and it is on track with what my kid (in the advanced track in MCPS) is doing in school through 7th (though RSM is much more challenging than anything MCPS offers in the accelerated courses). But after that RSM is a year ahead. The reason is that RSM breaks geometry into 3 years - you take it along with pre-algebra/algebra classes in 6th-8th. So in 8th grade my kid will finish geometry in RSM and also do algebra 2 in RSM, while in MCPS she will do Geometry that year. She won't take Algebra 2 until 9th in MCPS.

Blended algebra and geometry?

They recommend you sign up for an algebra class and a smaller geometry class each year. This also lets you move to another enrichment -level in one but not the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son qualified to take Algebra in 7th but I heard the teacher was not that great and there wasn't a physical textbook but random pages online that they did. So I had my son do Honors 7 math plus AOPS Algebra after school. Honors 7 math was so easy he never really had homework so he had plenty of time to do AOPS instead.

So when he took Algebra in 8th it was a review and left him with really solid algebra skills. He took the next level algebra class in the evenings. He then took geometry in between 8th and 9th. So when he was in 9th and doing Honors Algebra 2 he had already been exposed to it the year before. He noticed some of his classmates who did Algebra in 7th really struggled in algebra 2 because they were shaky in some algebra topics.

This makes me sad. You had a great time with AoPS Algebra, and you noticed that school Algebra was insufficient for others. So why settle for the inferior summer version of school Geometry? I recommend doing something like AoPS Geometry to enhance that.

It kind of makes me laugh because their kid did SOOOO much outside tutoring to ensure math was easy. The kids in Alg. 2 who took alg in 7 may have to do a little bit of tutoring and find it hard, but the time they put into math overall is probably less AND they learn how to do something difficult. I see both as decent lessons about growing up.

What's so funny about taking time to learn?
"Finding it hard" isn't the gift you make it out to be, when it's a very basic level of material and it's a cracked foundation for the future. AoPS is a lot harder than school, but it builds the strong foundation you need to succeed.

+1. The AoPS curriculum (and probably RSM, too), is a lot harder. Kids whose only exposure to math is getting an A in an accelerated school Alg IH/Geom IH class are orders of magnitude behind kids who get all blue in AoPS. In everything: reasoning, speed, mathematical writing, breadth... In short, they don't know what they're missing - and unless they go in a mathy field, may never know. And if they do, their college professors will wonder why they chose this field.

DP. For anyone who is taking this seriously, don't. Taking Algebra privately the prior year is not necessary to learn and do well in Algebra. Same for Algebra II. And it's not necessary to do Aops or RSM before going into a math, science, or engineering field.

NP.
AoPS and RSM classes are not meant to be taught before doing the school version, and they're not meant to be a means for acceleration. Ideally, they should be a supplement, where a kid is taking Algebra in school and simultaneously taking AoPS Algebra to give the extra rigor and fill in any foundational gaps. I agree that it's not necessary to do AoPS or RSM before going into a STEM field, but it would undoubtedly help the kid have a greater understanding of the math and a much stronger foundation. In school math, too many kids become experts at applying the right algorithms to get the right answers without having a real understanding of the material. That will not work in AoPS classes.

You really are missing the whole point of AOPS. It absolutely is for acceleration, that is why Richard Rusczyk founded AOPS - for kids who loved math, and did exceptionally well in school so they were bored. It has morphed into something else for many people, but that is who the original audience was for- advanced kids who often did competition math. It was never intended to supplement math at school. For kids who get math and are brilliant at it, math at school is way too slow. So no, it is not meant to fill in foundational gaps.

That being said, I posted about my kid doing geometry in the summer. He is NOT a math prodigy, just a solid math student because he has put in the time. He is not going to be a math major or an engineering major. For him he really benefited from taking two years of algebra - first through AOPS then Algebra at school. No way was he going to do AOPS geometry. That book is hard! My nephew is a math whiz and was homeschooled for middle school using AOPS books at home. They were written so a math whiz can self study and read the books to learn. AOPS Geometry is a big step up from AOPS algebra and then AOPS intermediate Algebra is a big step up from Geometry. In 8th grade he did another Algebra 2 program at home while doing algebra 1 at school. Most kids doing AOPS intermediate algebra really, really like math and many are into contest math like Math Olympiad.

You just can't do precalc and calculus without a really solid algebra foundation. If you aren't sure your child is going to be with a really good teacher with a solid curriculum then I would reconsider algebra in 7th unless your kid is really good at math. I am not sure why the person wrote that my kid didn't learn to do something hard. AOPS algebra in 7th was hard as was intermediate algebra online at home (with a different program- not AOPS). What was easy was algebra 1 at school in 8th grade.

"Foundational" is a fuzzy word. AoPS fills in the *conceptual* foundational gaps that school misses, and also does massive extensions, not the *fact fluency* foundation of school. AoPS offers *math foundation* where school offers *arithmetic foundation*.

AoPS explicitly endorses taking Beast Academy at the same time or *after* school year math. Likewise they endorse doing MS/HS courses alongside school, because their curriculum goes far deeper and wider than the school curriculum. (And along the way, AOPS Alg1 covers most of school Alg 2, and AoPS Geom+Alg 2 covers most of school Precalculus.)
AoPS originally did "contest math" which is really enrichment. Their first 2 books, the original "Art of Problem Solving" books, were stuffed with math K-12 doesn't teach at all.

Students who are well-placed in school do great taking only the "competition" class series, including the Olympiad classes with proof writing. Students underplaced in school (or doing AoPS instead of school class!) do great in the school year math classes, where they do some proof writing on school year topics.

You can do AoPS ahead of school as a conceptual stretch and then use school for fluency practice, or do AoPS class after the school year class so you can better tackle the enriched content.
AoPS classes are "big" and students at the lower end and upper end both learn a lot, with personal adaptive homework and no pressure to "get an A". (AoPS only gives grades if requested, everyone gets the same A whether they "pass" all the topics at a basic school level, or "master" them, or reach the highest level problems). Classes can be repeated to go deeper the second time around.


They also welcome acceleration, so each student can progress based on their ability and time commitment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son qualified to take Algebra in 7th but I heard the teacher was not that great and there wasn't a physical textbook but random pages online that they did. So I had my son do Honors 7 math plus AOPS Algebra after school. Honors 7 math was so easy he never really had homework so he had plenty of time to do AOPS instead.

So when he took Algebra in 8th it was a review and left him with really solid algebra skills. He took the next level algebra class in the evenings. He then took geometry in between 8th and 9th. So when he was in 9th and doing Honors Algebra 2 he had already been exposed to it the year before. He noticed some of his classmates who did Algebra in 7th really struggled in algebra 2 because they were shaky in some algebra topics.

This makes me sad. You had a great time with AoPS Algebra, and you noticed that school Algebra was insufficient for others. So why settle for the inferior summer version of school Geometry? I recommend doing something like AoPS Geometry to enhance that.

It kind of makes me laugh because their kid did SOOOO much outside tutoring to ensure math was easy. The kids in Alg. 2 who took alg in 7 may have to do a little bit of tutoring and find it hard, but the time they put into math overall is probably less AND they learn how to do something difficult. I see both as decent lessons about growing up.

What's so funny about taking time to learn?
"Finding it hard" isn't the gift you make it out to be, when it's a very basic level of material and it's a cracked foundation for the future. AoPS is a lot harder than school, but it builds the strong foundation you need to succeed.

+1. The AoPS curriculum (and probably RSM, too), is a lot harder. Kids whose only exposure to math is getting an A in an accelerated school Alg IH/Geom IH class are orders of magnitude behind kids who get all blue in AoPS. In everything: reasoning, speed, mathematical writing, breadth... In short, they don't know what they're missing - and unless they go in a mathy field, may never know. And if they do, their college professors will wonder why they chose this field.

DP. For anyone who is taking this seriously, don't. Taking Algebra privately the prior year is not necessary to learn and do well in Algebra. Same for Algebra II. And it's not necessary to do Aops or RSM before going into a math, science, or engineering field.

NP.
AoPS and RSM classes are not meant to be taught before doing the school version, and they're not meant to be a means for acceleration. Ideally, they should be a supplement, where a kid is taking Algebra in school and simultaneously taking AoPS Algebra to give the extra rigor and fill in any foundational gaps. I agree that it's not necessary to do AoPS or RSM before going into a STEM field, but it would undoubtedly help the kid have a greater understanding of the math and a much stronger foundation. In school math, too many kids become experts at applying the right algorithms to get the right answers without having a real understanding of the material. That will not work in AoPS classes.

You really are missing the whole point of AOPS. It absolutely is for acceleration, that is why Richard Rusczyk founded AOPS - for kids who loved math, and did exceptionally well in school so they were bored. It has morphed into something else for many people, but that is who the original audience was for- advanced kids who often did competition math. It was never intended to supplement math at school. For kids who get math and are brilliant at it, math at school is way too slow. So no, it is not meant to fill in foundational gaps.

That being said, I posted about my kid doing geometry in the summer. He is NOT a math prodigy, just a solid math student because he has put in the time. He is not going to be a math major or an engineering major. For him he really benefited from taking two years of algebra - first through AOPS then Algebra at school. No way was he going to do AOPS geometry. That book is hard! My nephew is a math whiz and was homeschooled for middle school using AOPS books at home. They were written so a math whiz can self study and read the books to learn. AOPS Geometry is a big step up from AOPS algebra and then AOPS intermediate Algebra is a big step up from Geometry. In 8th grade he did another Algebra 2 program at home while doing algebra 1 at school. Most kids doing AOPS intermediate algebra really, really like math and many are into contest math like Math Olympiad.

You just can't do precalc and calculus without a really solid algebra foundation. If you aren't sure your child is going to be with a really good teacher with a solid curriculum then I would reconsider algebra in 7th unless your kid is really good at math. I am not sure why the person wrote that my kid didn't learn to do something hard. AOPS algebra in 7th was hard as was intermediate algebra online at home (with a different program- not AOPS). What was easy was algebra 1 at school in 8th grade.

10:00 pp here. I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. AoPS assumes that the kids already have enough fluency with the foundational materials. Thus, both the online and AoPS academy classes leap straight into the more rigorous materials. If a kid were to do only the homework required by AoPS, they likely wouldn't spend enough time mastering all of the material.

In a perfect world, kids wouldn't be artificially held back in math by school, and they wouldn't need to use AoPS to jump ahead. Instead, school math would provide the more basic repetition, while AoPS would extend everything significantly. Or, they'd only use AoPS, but they'd do all of the book problems or a lot of alcumus to make sure that they fully grasp all of the material. My kid has taken all of Intro to Algebra, Intro to C&P, Intro to Geometry, Intermediate Algebra, Intermediate NT, and Precalc through AoPS classes. Intro to Algebra was the only one he took before taking the equivalent school class. I'm glad that all of Geometry, Intermediate Algebra, and Precalc were done in the same year that he took the equivalent school classes. I don't think the AoPS class lecture + homework sets alone would have been adequate to master these topics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kid qualified for advanced math track in MS, I was unsure what to do. He'd consistently scored in 99th percentile on MAP in ES (our district's main criteria for advancement), but he certainly didn't love it so much he did a bunch of math outside of the school setting. Also, his es math wasn't particularly challenging, so it's not easy to determine how your kid will do until they are actually in the class.

We decided to have him placed on the advanced track since math was his favorite subject, we didn't want to close out the opportunity for MV Calc/LA as a senior should he want to pursue that. I will say up til this point it's been a good experience for him, though not all rosy.

Alg 1 was a breeze. He struggled a few units in geometry - first time he didn't make all As or Bs on every assessment, there was a C or 2 on some units - but he did make all As on report card. I don't think the struggle was necessarily a bad thing. Alg 2H was challenging but, again, he asked the teacher for clarification when he needed it and made all As in math last year. I think a few struggles in an advanced class are better than coasting through easier/non-challenging classes.

Also, his high school offers off ramps from the advanced track should it come to that. He's currently in pre-calc and he/we can assess whether he should continue next year with AP Calc BC > MV Calc/LA path or AP Calc AP > AP Stats.

If the kid has the drive, has demonstrated ability in math in the present, and there are off ramps available, why not?

Did your son find most in his class WERE doing outside math? Was he only one actually learning the material in his class for first time?

When he returned to school in 8th/geometry, (after Covid and doing all of 7th grade/alg 1 via zoom), it was the first time he realized SOME kids were studying outside of class, but definitely not all. The few kids who were taking classes/studying outside our district's curriculum are the ones who wanted to push further than the current publicly-offered "most advanced track."

For example, he heard about a kid in 8th who was already taking calculus at the the high school. He did ask me at the time to find out how this was accomplished and to see if he could advance another year. I didn't think this was the right path for him - precisely because he doesn't do math outside of school - and shut it down. Also my feeling was that he was already on a path to get to MV Calc/LA as a senior and honestly how much more do you need? I wish now that I'd at least asked him WHY he wanted to push ahead. Was it because he wanted to keep up with the other kids or because he truly loved math and wanted to do extra work outside of school. But that's done now and I can't take it back.

He's in 10th/pre-calc now and doing fine so far though now he feels just like a regular math kid and not advanced at all. He's trying out this year an accelerated science track (2 yearlong science classes (chemistry & phys) condensed into 1 year) and some of the sophomores in that class are already in MV Calc/LA. That sounds insane to me, but obviously there are kids out there who can handle that!

His teacher at the end of 8th grade/geometry year told the class collectively they'd be in high school with some kids who were crazy-smart, but not to let that deter them and just to keep focusing on your own achievement and trajectory. I do think his first experience with a bit of imposter syndrome in 8th grade geometry may be helping him take this all in stride now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kid qualified for advanced math track in MS, I was unsure what to do. He'd consistently scored in 99th percentile on MAP in ES (our district's main criteria for advancement), but he certainly didn't love it so much he did a bunch of math outside of the school setting. Also, his es math wasn't particularly challenging, so it's not easy to determine how your kid will do until they are actually in the class.

We decided to have him placed on the advanced track since math was his favorite subject, we didn't want to close out the opportunity for MV Calc/LA as a senior should he want to pursue that. I will say up til this point it's been a good experience for him, though not all rosy.

Alg 1 was a breeze. He struggled a few units in geometry - first time he didn't make all As or Bs on every assessment, there was a C or 2 on some units - but he did make all As on report card. I don't think the struggle was necessarily a bad thing. Alg 2H was challenging but, again, he asked the teacher for clarification when he needed it and made all As in math last year. I think a few struggles in an advanced class are better than coasting through easier/non-challenging classes.

Also, his high school offers off ramps from the advanced track should it come to that. He's currently in pre-calc and he/we can assess whether he should continue next year with AP Calc BC > MV Calc/LA path or AP Calc AP > AP Stats.

If the kid has the drive, has demonstrated ability in math in the present, and there are off ramps available, why not?

Did your son find most in his class WERE doing outside math? Was he only one actually learning the material in his class for first time?

When he returned to school in 8th/geometry, (after Covid and doing all of 7th grade/alg 1 via zoom), it was the first time he realized SOME kids were studying outside of class, but definitely not all. The few kids who were taking classes/studying outside our district's curriculum are the ones who wanted to push further than the current publicly-offered "most advanced track."

For example, he heard about a kid in 8th who was already taking calculus at the the high school. He did ask me at the time to find out how this was accomplished and to see if he could advance another year. I didn't think this was the right path for him - precisely because he doesn't do math outside of school - and shut it down. Also my feeling was that he was already on a path to get to MV Calc/LA as a senior and honestly how much more do you need? I wish now that I'd at least asked him WHY he wanted to push ahead. Was it because he wanted to keep up with the other kids or because he truly loved math and wanted to do extra work outside of school. But that's done now and I can't take it back.

He's in 10th/pre-calc now and doing fine so far though now he feels just like a regular math kid and not advanced at all. He's trying out this year an accelerated science track (2 yearlong science classes (chemistry & phys) condensed into 1 year) and some of the sophomores in that class are already in MV Calc/LA. That sounds insane to me, but obviously there are kids out there who can handle that!

His teacher at the end of 8th grade/geometry year told the class collectively they'd be in high school with some kids who were crazy-smart, but not to let that deter them and just to keep focusing on your own achievement and trajectory. I do think his first experience with a bit of imposter syndrome in 8th grade geometry may be helping him take this all in stride now.

Wait, are you the same person that had your kid take basic 7 instead of algebra but did algebra on AOPS in 7th? You buried the fact that it was a covid year. I DID think it is funny that you needed to protect your kid from failure by having them sit through 2 “easy” years (basic 7 and then algebra) just to make sure he achieved success. It seemed like a waste of time, (extra AOPS in 7/wanted time in basic 7 class, then more wasted time in Algebra because he already took it, and then waste his summer time in Geometry) but since it was virtual covid year, I completely understand why you made that choice.

Also, if other kids in his cohort are struggling in algebra 2, it is more likely becuase they had algebra virtual than anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kid qualified for advanced math track in MS, I was unsure what to do. He'd consistently scored in 99th percentile on MAP in ES (our district's main criteria for advancement), but he certainly didn't love it so much he did a bunch of math outside of the school setting. Also, his es math wasn't particularly challenging, so it's not easy to determine how your kid will do until they are actually in the class.

We decided to have him placed on the advanced track since math was his favorite subject, we didn't want to close out the opportunity for MV Calc/LA as a senior should he want to pursue that. I will say up til this point it's been a good experience for him, though not all rosy.

Alg 1 was a breeze. He struggled a few units in geometry - first time he didn't make all As or Bs on every assessment, there was a C or 2 on some units - but he did make all As on report card. I don't think the struggle was necessarily a bad thing. Alg 2H was challenging but, again, he asked the teacher for clarification when he needed it and made all As in math last year. I think a few struggles in an advanced class are better than coasting through easier/non-challenging classes.

Also, his high school offers off ramps from the advanced track should it come to that. He's currently in pre-calc and he/we can assess whether he should continue next year with AP Calc BC > MV Calc/LA path or AP Calc AP > AP Stats.

If the kid has the drive, has demonstrated ability in math in the present, and there are off ramps available, why not?

Did your son find most in his class WERE doing outside math? Was he only one actually learning the material in his class for first time?

When he returned to school in 8th/geometry, (after Covid and doing all of 7th grade/alg 1 via zoom), it was the first time he realized SOME kids were studying outside of class, but definitely not all. The few kids who were taking classes/studying outside our district's curriculum are the ones who wanted to push further than the current publicly-offered "most advanced track."

For example, he heard about a kid in 8th who was already taking calculus at the the high school. He did ask me at the time to find out how this was accomplished and to see if he could advance another year. I didn't think this was the right path for him - precisely because he doesn't do math outside of school - and shut it down. Also my feeling was that he was already on a path to get to MV Calc/LA as a senior and honestly how much more do you need? I wish now that I'd at least asked him WHY he wanted to push ahead. Was it because he wanted to keep up with the other kids or because he truly loved math and wanted to do extra work outside of school. But that's done now and I can't take it back.

He's in 10th/pre-calc now and doing fine so far though now he feels just like a regular math kid and not advanced at all. He's trying out this year an accelerated science track (2 yearlong science classes (chemistry & phys) condensed into 1 year) and some of the sophomores in that class are already in MV Calc/LA. That sounds insane to me, but obviously there are kids out there who can handle that!

His teacher at the end of 8th grade/geometry year told the class collectively they'd be in high school with some kids who were crazy-smart, but not to let that deter them and just to keep focusing on your own achievement and trajectory. I do think his first experience with a bit of imposter syndrome in 8th grade geometry may be helping him take this all in stride now.

Wait, are you the same person that had your kid take basic 7 instead of algebra but did algebra on AOPS in 7th? You buried the fact that it was a covid year. I DID think it is funny that you needed to protect your kid from failure by having them sit through 2 “easy” years (basic 7 and then algebra) just to make sure he achieved success. It seemed like a waste of time, (extra AOPS in 7/wanted time in basic 7 class, then more wasted time in Algebra because he already took it, and then waste his summer time in Geometry) but since it was virtual covid year, I completely understand why you made that choice.

Also, if other kids in his cohort are struggling in algebra 2, it is more likely becuase they had algebra virtual than anything.

No, that was not me! I have not participated in any of the discussions about AOPS. Haven't been to this thread in about a week (??) and just now saw that someone asked me the above question.

[Anonymous]

^^My kid was the 99th percentile kid in math, was put on advanced track in MS (his ES offered nothing in the way of advancement, enrichment), and he did not do out-of -school extra math. Clearly, other kids in his classes were though because some are a year or 2+ ahead of the advanced math track in HS now. We live in a town with a top 10 school and apparently kids who have exhausted the math options in high school are able to take additional math classes there. Clearly they are geniuses and gunning for admission to top colleges I guess.

In middle school my kid on the so-called advanced math track did: Math 6/7 in 6th, Alg 1 via zoom/full Covid year, and Geometry H in 8th back in person again. In geometry he had a few struggles on a few units, but overall he did fine. And I don't see a few struggles necessarily as a bad thing.

As it turns out, his k-8 school district has now eliminated that advanced MS curriculum and now it's alg 1 for all in 8th. And odd because the high school that the k-8 district feeds into still has advanced math classes for seniors. So now kids who want to advance will need to take Geometry (on their own/online I guess) along with alg 1 in 8th. The high school is considering offering a summer geometry program for those kids as well. But that doesn't sound ideal either to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kid qualified for advanced math track in MS, I was unsure what to do. He'd consistently scored in 99th percentile on MAP in ES (our district's main criteria for advancement), but he certainly didn't love it so much he did a bunch of math outside of the school setting. Also, his es math wasn't particularly challenging, so it's not easy to determine how your kid will do until they are actually in the class.

We decided to have him placed on the advanced track since math was his favorite subject, we didn't want to close out the opportunity for MV Calc/LA as a senior should he want to pursue that. I will say up til this point it's been a good experience for him, though not all rosy.

Alg 1 was a breeze. He struggled a few units in geometry - first time he didn't make all As or Bs on every assessment, there was a C or 2 on some units - but he did make all As on report card. I don't think the struggle was necessarily a bad thing. Alg 2H was challenging but, again, he asked the teacher for clarification when he needed it and made all As in math last year. I think a few struggles in an advanced class are better than coasting through easier/non-challenging classes.

Also, his high school offers off ramps from the advanced track should it come to that. He's currently in pre-calc and he/we can assess whether he should continue next year with AP Calc BC > MV Calc/LA path or AP Calc AP > AP Stats.

If the kid has the drive, has demonstrated ability in math in the present, and there are off ramps available, why not?

For example, he heard about a kid in 8th who was already taking calculus at the the high school. He did ask me at the time to find out how this was accomplished and to see if he could advance another year.

Also my feeling was that he was already on a path to get to MV Calc/LA as a senior and honestly how much more do you need?

He's in 10th/pre-calc now and doing fine so far though now he feels just like a regular math kid and not advanced at all. He's trying out this year an accelerated science track (2 yearlong science classes (chemistry & phys) condensed into 1 year) and some of the sophomores in that class are already in MV Calc/LA.

There's Differential Equations, Discrete/Concrete Math, and Stats (multiple semesters). Plenty of options that aren't "higher" than MV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^My kid was the 99th percentile kid in math, was put on advanced track in MS (his ES offered nothing in the way of advancement, enrichment), and he did not do out-of -school extra math. Clearly, other kids in his classes were though because some are a year or 2+ ahead of the advanced math track in HS now. We live in a town with a top 10 school and apparently kids who have exhausted the math options in high school are able to take additional math classes there. Clearly they are geniuses and gunning for admission to top colleges I guess.

In middle school my kid on the so-called advanced math track did: Math 6/7 in 6th, Alg 1 via zoom/full Covid year, and Geometry H in 8th back in person again. In geometry he had a few struggles on a few units, but overall he did fine. And I don't see a few struggles necessarily as a bad thing.

As it turns out, his k-8 school district has now eliminated that advanced MS curriculum and now it's alg 1 for all in 8th. And odd because the high school that the k-8 district feeds into still has advanced math classes for seniors. So now kids who want to advance will need to take Geometry (on their own/online I guess) along with alg 1 in 8th. The high school is considering offering a summer geometry program for those kids as well. But that doesn't sound ideal either to me.

Time to vote out your (democratic?) school board?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My son qualified to take Algebra in 7th but I heard the teacher was not that great and there wasn't a physical textbook but random pages online that they did. So I had my son do Honors 7 math plus AOPS Algebra after school. Honors 7 math was so easy he never really had homework so he had plenty of time to do AOPS instead.

So when he took Algebra in 8th it was a review and left him with really solid algebra skills. He took the next level algebra class in the evenings. He then took geometry in between 8th and 9th. So when he was in 9th and doing Honors Algebra 2 he had already been exposed to it the year before. He noticed some of his classmates who did Algebra in 7th really struggled in algebra 2 because they were shaky in some algebra topics.

This makes me sad. You had a great time with AoPS Algebra, and you noticed that school Algebra was insufficient for others. So why settle for the inferior summer version of school Geometry? I recommend doing something like AoPS Geometry to enhance that.

It kind of makes me laugh because their kid did SOOOO much outside tutoring to ensure math was easy. The kids in Alg. 2 who took alg in 7 may have to do a little bit of tutoring and find it hard, but the time they put into math overall is probably less AND they learn how to do something difficult. I see both as decent lessons about growing up.

What's so funny about taking time to learn?
"Finding it hard" isn't the gift you make it out to be, when it's a very basic level of material and it's a cracked foundation for the future. AoPS is a lot harder than school, but it builds the strong foundation you need to succeed.

+1. The AoPS curriculum (and probably RSM, too), is a lot harder. Kids whose only exposure to math is getting an A in an accelerated school Alg IH/Geom IH class are orders of magnitude behind kids who get all blue in AoPS. In everything: reasoning, speed, mathematical writing, breadth... In short, they don't know what they're missing - and unless they go in a mathy field, may never know. And if they do, their college professors will wonder why they chose this field.

DP. For anyone who is taking this seriously, don't. Taking Algebra privately the prior year is not necessary to learn and do well in Algebra. Same for Algebra II. And it's not necessary to do Aops or RSM before going into a math, science, or engineering field.

NP.
AoPS and RSM classes are not meant to be taught before doing the school version, and they're not meant to be a means for acceleration. Ideally, they should be a supplement, where a kid is taking Algebra in school and simultaneously taking AoPS Algebra to give the extra rigor and fill in any foundational gaps. I agree that it's not necessary to do AoPS or RSM before going into a STEM field, but it would undoubtedly help the kid have a greater understanding of the math and a much stronger foundation. In school math, too many kids become experts at applying the right algorithms to get the right answers without having a real understanding of the material. That will not work in AoPS classes.

You really are missing the whole point of AOPS. It absolutely is for acceleration, that is why Richard Rusczyk founded AOPS - for kids who loved math, and did exceptionally well in school so they were bored. It has morphed into something else for many people, but that is who the original audience was for- advanced kids who often did competition math. It was never intended to supplement math at school. For kids who get math and are brilliant at it, math at school is way too slow. So no, it is not meant to fill in foundational gaps.

That being said, I posted about my kid doing geometry in the summer. He is NOT a math prodigy, just a solid math student because he has put in the time. He is not going to be a math major or an engineering major. For him he really benefited from taking two years of algebra - first through AOPS then Algebra at school. No way was he going to do AOPS geometry. That book is hard! My nephew is a math whiz and was homeschooled for middle school using AOPS books at home. They were written so a math whiz can self study and read the books to learn. AOPS Geometry is a big step up from AOPS algebra and then AOPS intermediate Algebra is a big step up from Geometry. In 8th grade he did another Algebra 2 program at home while doing algebra 1 at school. Most kids doing AOPS intermediate algebra really, really like math and many are into contest math like Math Olympiad.

You just can't do precalc and calculus without a really solid algebra foundation. If you aren't sure your child is going to be with a really good teacher with a solid curriculum then I would reconsider algebra in 7th unless your kid is really good at math. I am not sure why the person wrote that my kid didn't learn to do something hard. AOPS algebra in 7th was hard as was intermediate algebra online at home (with a different program- not AOPS). What was easy was algebra 1 at school in 8th grade.

10:00 pp here. I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. AoPS assumes that the kids already have enough fluency with the foundational materials. Thus, both the online and AoPS academy classes leap straight into the more rigorous materials. If a kid were to do only the homework required by AoPS, they likely wouldn't spend enough time mastering all of the material.

In a perfect world, kids wouldn't be artificially held back in math by school, and they wouldn't need to use AoPS to jump ahead. Instead, school math would provide the more basic repetition, while AoPS would extend everything significantly. Or, they'd only use AoPS, but they'd do all of the book problems or a lot of alcumus to make sure that they fully grasp all of the material. My kid has taken all of Intro to Algebra, Intro to C&P, Intro to Geometry, Intermediate Algebra, Intermediate NT, and Precalc through AoPS classes. Intro to Algebra was the only one he took before taking the equivalent school class. I'm glad that all of Geometry, Intermediate Algebra, and Precalc were done in the same year that he took the equivalent school classes. I don't think the AoPS class lecture + homework sets alone would have been adequate to master these topics.

In a perfect world? How about the not-so perfect world of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s that saw separate gifted tracks, led the US to win the race to the moon, and take a leadership position in the sciences?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kid qualified for advanced math track in MS, I was unsure what to do. He'd consistently scored in 99th percentile on MAP in ES (our district's main criteria for advancement), but he certainly didn't love it so much he did a bunch of math outside of the school setting. Also, his es math wasn't particularly challenging, so it's not easy to determine how your kid will do until they are actually in the class.

We decided to have him placed on the advanced track since math was his favorite subject, we didn't want to close out the opportunity for MV Calc/LA as a senior should he want to pursue that. I will say up til this point it's been a good experience for him, though not all rosy.

Alg 1 was a breeze. He struggled a few units in geometry - first time he didn't make all As or Bs on every assessment, there was a C or 2 on some units - but he did make all As on report card. I don't think the struggle was necessarily a bad thing. Alg 2H was challenging but, again, he asked the teacher for clarification when he needed it and made all As in math last year. I think a few struggles in an advanced class are better than coasting through easier/non-challenging classes.

Also, his high school offers off ramps from the advanced track should it come to that. He's currently in pre-calc and he/we can assess whether he should continue next year with AP Calc BC > MV Calc/LA path or AP Calc AP > AP Stats.

If the kid has the drive, has demonstrated ability in math in the present, and there are off ramps available, why not?

For example, he heard about a kid in 8th who was already taking calculus at the the high school. He did ask me at the time to find out how this was accomplished and to see if he could advance another year.

Also my feeling was that he was already on a path to get to MV Calc/LA as a senior and honestly how much more do you need?

He's in 10th/pre-calc now and doing fine so far though now he feels just like a regular math kid and not advanced at all. He's trying out this year an accelerated science track (2 yearlong science classes (chemistry & phys) condensed into 1 year) and some of the sophomores in that class are already in MV Calc/LA.

There's Differential Equations, Discrete/Concrete Math, and Stats (multiple semesters). Plenty of options that aren't "higher" than MV.

What's your point? And, how would you know what the totality of math options are at my kid's high school and what is considered the highest math track? Hint: Statistics is not one of them. But if my kid should ever want to step off his high school's higher math track, I'd be happy for him to take Stats or whatever interests him instead.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You should probably look long term. Algebra in 7th means Calculus in 11th. Which seems crazy to me but lots of top kids around here do that, with the intention of something even harder in 12th and top colleges/STEM majors in college in mind. Does that sound right to your family?
I personally think math concepts for a bright child track well with brain development when they take algebra in 8th and Calculus in 12th. But depends on your long term goals.

Doesn't seem crazy to me. AP Calc BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th seem very helpful to students for college.

Can you expand on why AP Stats is helpful for college? Assuming student is going to a college that does not give credit for AP classes (looks at them for admission but doesn't count toward college credit itself). I am in the same position as OP; 6th grade DD just started pre-Algebra this year and will be in Algebra in 7th if she continues on this course. She's good at math but doesn't love it. She loves ELA/writing/theater/improv/singing. Older DS took Algebra in 8th, as did DH and I. I took AP Calc BC in 12th. Except for appearing in a category of the "highest performing math kids" is Stats really helpful? I'm truly curious to know bc it could be a factor in the decision to keep on the track for DD.

Sorry, haven't checked on this thread in a while so am late to respond. Stats to me is one of the most useful classes. I wish I had taken it in high school. I was a social science major but struggled with some of the quant stuff becuase I didn't have the stats background. I ended up taking stats after college (too hard to fit it in with my double major) and ultimately went on to do much more stats/econometrics in grad school. I use stats regularly in my job, and I wish I had had it earlier. We are in MCPS which regularly skips of stats material (because it's not on the MCAP), and I make my kid go back and do it.

She is taking algebra in 7th and is a very mathy kid - and really enjoys math as of now. In MCPS you have to take math every year of HS regardless of when you take Calc. Our plan is for her to take Calc BC junior year if she continues to be successful with math and then AP stats senior year, unless she wants to do multvariate (which I don't think is as helpful as stats).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child who did Algebra in 6th and a child who did Algebra in 7th.

The benefit of a fast track is:

1. Avoiding boredom and being appropriately challenged.
2. Getting noticed positively for college admissions (although these days a lot of students take Algebra 1 in 7th, so in itself that's not newsworthy).

The disadvantages are:

1. Getting into difficulties later in the more advanced math classes. Age-old question: is it better to have straight As in an easy class, or Bs in a hard class?

It's not always possible to know in advance how your child will do. I'm the sort of person who is willing to try, and then support my kids with tutors, or teacher them myself at home, or, if need be, take a slower track (although that never happened).

There is no evidence for the claim that you "get into difficulties later" - it's politically motivated misinformation that was spread by, for instance, proponents of VMPI.

The longitudinal numbers show a different picture: students who are screened to take Algebra I earlier do better in it and they do better later. (Run SOL statistics, for instance.)

I think to actually compare you would need to compare only among kids who were eligible to take Algebra 1 in 7th --those who did and those who didn't. Otherwise, not surprising that kids who scored 93+ in math aptitude continue to do well.

if Op's kid is elligible for algebra in 7th then he's part of the 93+ and thus is very likely to continue to do well