Is dual-enrollment a scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very good for lower income families who cannot afford 4 years of college easily. It also allows you to go in as a transfer student vs. freshman. There are advantages and we consider it but heard too many negative things.

This is actually not always true - dual enrollment students are often still considered freshman. Umd, for example, only considers dual enrollment students transfers if they complete additional college credits post high school graduation.

Faculty at some local OOS schools have noted the DE students are not socially ready for the college experience - academically they may have covered the material, but they have seen much better results with the 2 years of CC and a transfer into a major (like engineering) over the HS DE experience an attending college. So yes it can save money, but the kids have struggles having missed those HS years with their peers.

I certainly expect faculty to feel threatened by DE. They need four years of enrollment from every student to keep their jobs.

It's not their jobs being threatened its having to deal with students who are not mentally or socially ready for college and therefore spending more time having to "parent" than teach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the thing you have to be careful with is using the DE class for high school credit. Then it may not transfer. That’s the catch.

Your student may not NEED the high school credit because they’ve taken high school classes in middle school so the DE can transfer.

Just read all the details before making decisions.

That’s not an accurate statement at all. It’s called DUAL CREDIT because it counts toward both at the same time (assuming the college has it in their approved credit list).

No... colleges force you to choose - is the class a high school class (then it shows you are taking advanced classes, can place you in higher level courses in college, etc., but you are still a freshman admit) OR is the class a college class, contributing to an Associates' degree (then you receive college credit), but are usually applying as a transfer student. You don't get to count it as high school and then still graduate in two years.

Who ever keeps posting this is misinformed about current processes between MCPS and dual enrollment at Montgomery College and how University System of Maryland colleges (UMD, UMBC, Towson, etc.) accept that credit. Students that are dual enrolled have both an MC transcript and their MCPS HS transcript with those courses (they show up as CL Adv "subject" courses with the grade and 1 credit per semester). When you apply to college (specifically UMD) you enter all of the courses taken and where as part of the application. The only transcript that gets sent for application purposes is the high school transcript. Until you have earned your HS diploma, you apply to college as a freshman, regardless of how many MC credits you have or if you will earn an AA/AS degree. Once you have been accepted to a college and you pay your deposit to enroll, then you send the MC transcript to the school and they will transfer college level credit according to the transfer agreements.
https://www.montgomerycollege.edu/academics/transfer/course-equivalencies.html
https://transfercredit.umd.edu/ or https://registrar.umbc.edu/services/transfer-credits/transferring-coursework/ etc.
The State Higher Education Commission manages this agreement. https://mhec.maryland.gov/preparing/Pages/stuguide.aspx

The benefit that a student gets from completing an Associate's degree is that it "transfers" more readily to other public universities not in Maryland. The associate degree "bundles" the core, distribution, and major foundational classes together. When a student transfers, they just need to complete the upper level courses for their degree, and not have individual classes analyzed to see if they fit the school's distribution requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very good for lower income families who cannot afford 4 years of college easily. It also allows you to go in as a transfer student vs. freshman. There are advantages and we consider it but heard too many negative things.

This is actually not always true - dual enrollment students are often still considered freshman. Umd, for example, only considers dual enrollment students transfers if they complete additional college credits post high school graduation.

Faculty at some local OOS schools have noted the DE students are not socially ready for the college experience - academically they may have covered the material, but they have seen much better results with the 2 years of CC and a transfer into a major (like engineering) over the HS DE experience an attending college. So yes it can save money, but the kids have struggles having missed those HS years with their peers.

OP here. Yup. This was my concern. Even IF the kids are ready academically, there's so much social and emotional development being missed out on in those two years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very good for lower income families who cannot afford 4 years of college easily. It also allows you to go in as a transfer student vs. freshman. There are advantages and we consider it but heard too many negative things.

This is actually not always true - dual enrollment students are often still considered freshman. Umd, for example, only considers dual enrollment students transfers if they complete additional college credits post high school graduation.

Faculty at some local OOS schools have noted the DE students are not socially ready for the college experience - academically they may have covered the material, but they have seen much better results with the 2 years of CC and a transfer into a major (like engineering) over the HS DE experience an attending college. So yes it can save money, but the kids have struggles having missed those HS years with their peers.

OP here. Yup. This was my concern. Even IF the kids are ready academically, there's so much social and emotional development being missed out on in those two years.

Infantilizing high school and college students doesn't help them grow up.

[Anonymous]

First of all, many colleges know that AP classes vary widely at different schools. Some folks may feel that an MCPS AP is ‘harder’ than an MC class, but to a college, once is better, and that is the college class. No this path isn’t for everyone. Most folks i know have kids who only take 1-2 classes at MC; specifically math. Many many schools top out at Calculus, and there are kids who need/want more. The kids I know that took classes at MC, got into more elite schools and/or got more Merit money from places like UMD etc….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First of all, many colleges know that AP classes vary widely at different schools. Some folks may feel that an MCPS AP is ‘harder’ than an MC class, but to a college, once is better, and that is the college class. No this path isn’t for everyone. Most folks i know have kids who only take 1-2 classes at MC; specifically math. Many many schools top out at Calculus, and there are kids who need/want more. The kids I know that took classes at MC, got into more elite schools and/or got more Merit money from places like UMD etc….

No, the AP classes vary, but that's why they are followed by a nationwide standardized test. The real reason why parents and students like DE is because they get the credit automatically, without having to retain the information and passing the exam with a high score.

[Anonymous]

Most top tier colleges will give you credit But Not get you out of a class, because they know they aren’t has challenging as a real college class

[Anonymous]

Our oldest took some DE courses in high school (we are not in the DMV) and loved it because it was an AP/college-level course without the AP exam. All she had to do was pass the classes to get the college credit. She loved DE, and looking back wishes she had taken more of them. She is at a competitive state flagship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most top tier colleges will give you credit But Not get you out of a class, because they know they aren’t has challenging as a real college class

Most kids aren’t going to “top tier colleges” so that’s irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First of all, many colleges know that AP classes vary widely at different schools. Some folks may feel that an MCPS AP is ‘harder’ than an MC class, but to a college, once is better, and that is the college class. No this path isn’t for everyone. Most folks i know have kids who only take 1-2 classes at MC; specifically math. Many many schools top out at Calculus, and there are kids who need/want more. The kids I know that took classes at MC, got into more elite schools and/or got more Merit money from places like UMD etc….

No, the AP classes vary, but that's why they are followed by a nationwide standardized test. The real reason why parents and students like DE is because they get the credit automatically, without having to retain the information and passing the exam with a high score.

This exactly.

[Anonymous]

I took a dual enrollment math class in high school that fulfilled my college math requirement. Because of this, and based on my major, I was not required to take any math in college and therefore didn’t. It seemed like a good idea at the time and was certainly expedient. But in hindsight, I feel like I may have missed out on something and probably should’ve taken math at college. I don’t yet have experience with dual enrollment in MCPS, but I’d be wary of encouraging my child to take dual enrollment, especially if it is a class related to what they want to pursue in college. I don’t know if I’d want them to skip over a basic level college class and jump straight into a higher level class based on dual enrollment credit because I’m not sure the dual enrollment would provide the same level of foundation knowledge/skills for the higher level class than if they took it once in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most top tier colleges will give you credit But Not get you out of a class, because they know they aren’t has challenging as a real college class

Most kids aren’t going to “top tier colleges” so that’s irrelevant.

Even UMD Honors is elite. They would rather have college credit than AP. I saw follow the $.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

You are correct. The people who think AP is better than real college credit are delusional and most of them clearly have not had a kid apply to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

You are correct. The people who think AP is better than real college credit are delusional and most of them clearly have not had a kid apply to college.

Ha ha ha! This board is FULL of families whose kids have done tons of APs and who are in college or are applying to college.
We all know DE is a crock for the wealthy and ambitious, because the universities our kids are enrolled it, or applying to, look down on dual enrollment, for all the reasons stated ***repeatedly*** on this thread.
DE is a great choice for lower-income students, and that's it. As such, it has a place in high school education and it is valuable. I support it. OP's original point was in part that DE was sold to ALL students as a panacea, whereas the reality is definitely more nuanced accordingly to family income and academic goals, and that's why she called it a "scam". I agree with her that MCPS is trying to sell it as hard as possible, in part because MC's enrollment in falling. There is conflict of interest here. You can't entirely trust what MCPS is selling. But as long as you keep this in mind, it's all good, because DE does have a lot of advantages for some.

So please, don't pretend you understand the finer points and politics of this discussion.