Is dual-enrollment a scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Ok then, IB is the best, DE sucks and it’s a program for low income losers. I hope your anxiety levels from the choices you make for your son are down!

[Anonymous]

FOR STUDENTS LOOKING FOR A LEG UP IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS
Colleges want to see students challenging themselves academically in high school, and each of these course designations indicates that a student is doing more than the minimum requirement.

Because students are reviewed in the context of their school, students who really want to push themselves should consider what their school has to offer. In a school with no AP or IB offerings, Honors or Dual Enrollment are going to be the most rigorous options. In a school that offers AP courses and the IB Diploma, taking a full IB course load is more demanding than taking a handful of AP courses.

That said, AP and IB are standardized while Honors and Dual Enrollment are not. That means that for AP and IB, there is a set curriculum that all students experience and an exam at the end that tests all students on the subject matter. Colleges can know exactly what a student with AP or IB experience should have learned. Honors and Dual Enrollment lack this “quality assurance.” For example, even though Dual Enrollment courses are college courses for college credit, some may be less challenging than an AP or IB course on the same subject.

Source: https://advcp.com/blogeditor/2021/2/08/honors-ap-ib-dual-enrollment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

FOR STUDENTS LOOKING FOR A LEG UP IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS
Colleges want to see students challenging themselves academically in high school, and each of these course designations indicates that a student is doing more than the minimum requirement.

Because students are reviewed in the context of their school, students who really want to push themselves should consider what their school has to offer. In a school with no AP or IB offerings, Honors or Dual Enrollment are going to be the most rigorous options. In a school that offers AP courses and the IB Diploma, taking a full IB course load is more demanding than taking a handful of AP courses.

That said, AP and IB are standardized while Honors and Dual Enrollment are not. That means that for AP and IB, there is a set curriculum that all students experience and an exam at the end that tests all students on the subject matter. Colleges can know exactly what a student with AP or IB experience should have learned. Honors and Dual Enrollment lack this “quality assurance.” For example, even though Dual Enrollment courses are college courses for college credit, some may be less challenging than an AP or IB course on the same subject.

Source: https://advcp.com/blogeditor/2021/2/08/honors-ap-ib-dual-enrollment

Great job parroting the drivel of some college counseling service, that really is the ultimate authority in college admissions.

I’m more familiar with this university and I’d advise you to read the admission page at MIT to get an idea on what’s expected.

https://firstyear.mit.edu/academics-exploration/ap-transfer-credit/

As you can see for AP there’s no credit for the class by itself, only the exam score of 5 counts, which one can take on their own while in DE. For IB only high level Math and Physics with a score of 7 matters. Not sure how you can claim IB is demonstrably better. There’s more variability for DE, which is why for credit transfer MIT wants to see all exams, syllabus, student assignments etc to make a fair evaluation, and that is up to each department. In reality, at least for MIT, there will be very few admitted students that don’t have Calculus BC under their belt so that isn’t a huge differentiator. If a student can take Multivariable, linear algebra and differential equations through DE, that is certainly a greater differentiator than whatever IB or AP can offer.

It also depends what the credit transfer policy is locally. For someone in California it would be absolutely crazy not to go the DE route that has guaranteed credit transfer to the UC system (e.g. Berkeley, UCLA etc). So really there would be nothing better than DE with sitting the AP exam at the end, whatever your college counselor tells you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FOR STUDENTS LOOKING FOR A LEG UP IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS
Colleges want to see students challenging themselves academically in high school, and each of these course designations indicates that a student is doing more than the minimum requirement.

Because students are reviewed in the context of their school, students who really want to push themselves should consider what their school has to offer. In a school with no AP or IB offerings, Honors or Dual Enrollment are going to be the most rigorous options. In a school that offers AP courses and the IB Diploma, taking a full IB course load is more demanding than taking a handful of AP courses.

That said, AP and IB are standardized while Honors and Dual Enrollment are not. That means that for AP and IB, there is a set curriculum that all students experience and an exam at the end that tests all students on the subject matter. Colleges can know exactly what a student with AP or IB experience should have learned. Honors and Dual Enrollment lack this “quality assurance.” For example, even though Dual Enrollment courses are college courses for college credit, some may be less challenging than an AP or IB course on the same subject.

Source: https://advcp.com/blogeditor/2021/2/08/honors-ap-ib-dual-enrollment

Great job parroting the drivel of some college counseling service, that really is the ultimate authority in college admissions.

I’m more familiar with this university and I’d advise you to read the admission page at MIT to get an idea on what’s expected.

https://firstyear.mit.edu/academics-exploration/ap-transfer-credit/

As you can see for AP there’s no credit for the class by itself, only the exam score of 5 counts, which one can take on their own while in DE. For IB only high level Math and Physics with a score of 7 matters. Not sure how you can claim IB is demonstrably better. There’s more variability for DE, which is why for credit transfer MIT wants to see all exams, syllabus, student assignments etc to make a fair evaluation, and that is up to each department. In reality, at least for MIT, there will be very few admitted students that don’t have Calculus BC under their belt so that isn’t a huge differentiator. If a student can take Multivariable, linear algebra and differential equations through DE, that is certainly a greater differentiator than whatever IB or AP can offer.

It also depends what the credit transfer policy is locally. For someone in California it would be absolutely crazy not to go the DE route that has guaranteed credit transfer to the UC system (e.g. Berkeley, UCLA etc). So really there would be nothing better than DE with sitting the AP exam at the end, whatever your college counselor tells you.

We can counter that with Georgetown's stance on Advanced Credit, where they basically neuter the main advantage of taking DE to "shorten college duration" since the school limits how many courses transfer and flat out says they shouldn't expect the ones that are accepted to shorten their time at GU:

Students taught college-level courses by high school faculty are not eligible for credit in those courses, but are encouraged to take the Advanced Placement Examinations in order to be considered for credit. Students who have had occasion to take regular college courses while in high school should submit an official college transcript for evaluation prior to enrollment.

Students who are enrolled in joint high school/college programs (taking college courses on college campuses while working concurrently for high school and college credit) are advised to apply as first year students, but should not expect credit for more than four courses. Participation in such programs will not significantly shorten the length of a degree program at Georgetown.

SOURCE: https://bulletin.georgetown.edu/admissions/advanced-credit/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FOR STUDENTS LOOKING FOR A LEG UP IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS
Colleges want to see students challenging themselves academically in high school, and each of these course designations indicates that a student is doing more than the minimum requirement.

Because students are reviewed in the context of their school, students who really want to push themselves should consider what their school has to offer. In a school with no AP or IB offerings, Honors or Dual Enrollment are going to be the most rigorous options. In a school that offers AP courses and the IB Diploma, taking a full IB course load is more demanding than taking a handful of AP courses.

That said, AP and IB are standardized while Honors and Dual Enrollment are not. That means that for AP and IB, there is a set curriculum that all students experience and an exam at the end that tests all students on the subject matter. Colleges can know exactly what a student with AP or IB experience should have learned. Honors and Dual Enrollment lack this “quality assurance.” For example, even though Dual Enrollment courses are college courses for college credit, some may be less challenging than an AP or IB course on the same subject.

Source: https://advcp.com/blogeditor/2021/2/08/honors-ap-ib-dual-enrollment

Great job parroting the drivel of some college counseling service, that really is the ultimate authority in college admissions.

I’m more familiar with this university and I’d advise you to read the admission page at MIT to get an idea on what’s expected.

https://firstyear.mit.edu/academics-exploration/ap-transfer-credit/

As you can see for AP there’s no credit for the class by itself, only the exam score of 5 counts, which one can take on their own while in DE. For IB only high level Math and Physics with a score of 7 matters. Not sure how you can claim IB is demonstrably better. There’s more variability for DE, which is why for credit transfer MIT wants to see all exams, syllabus, student assignments etc to make a fair evaluation, and that is up to each department. In reality, at least for MIT, there will be very few admitted students that don’t have Calculus BC under their belt so that isn’t a huge differentiator. If a student can take Multivariable, linear algebra and differential equations through DE, that is certainly a greater differentiator than whatever IB or AP can offer.

It also depends what the credit transfer policy is locally. For someone in California it would be absolutely crazy not to go the DE route that has guaranteed credit transfer to the UC system (e.g. Berkeley, UCLA etc). So really there would be nothing better than DE with sitting the AP exam at the end, whatever your college counselor tells you.

We can counter that with Georgetown's stance on Advanced Credit, where they basically neuter the main advantage of taking DE to "shorten college duration" since the school limits how many courses transfer and flat out says they shouldn't expect the ones that are accepted to shorten their time at GU:

Students taught college-level courses by high school faculty are not eligible for credit in those courses, but are encouraged to take the Advanced Placement Examinations in order to be considered for credit. Students who have had occasion to take regular college courses while in high school should submit an official college transcript for evaluation prior to enrollment.

Students who are enrolled in joint high school/college programs (taking college courses on college campuses while working concurrently for high school and college credit) are advised to apply as first year students, but should not expect credit for more than four courses. Participation in such programs will not significantly shorten the length of a degree program at Georgetown.

SOURCE: https://bulletin.georgetown.edu/admissions/advanced-credit/

Yes, selective colleges won’t give credit, MIT will mark it as ‘s’, won’t count towards gpa, great that Georgetown will give credit for 4 classes, UC Berkeley will give credit for all etc. pretty sure students applying for MIT don’t put a huge priority on graduating from there early.

The point is DE may have something to offer for many types of students, including the top ones. The return depends on many things, and it’s not clear cut that either IB or AP is ‘better’ or that DE is a ‘scam’.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Montgomery College Dual Enrollment and the early/middle programs offer a lot of opportunity, but it's complicated and not well understood even locally, so I wouldn't trust out of state colleges to understand and appreciate it.
They know what AP and IB are.

+1 I think the early college programs can be a great opportunity but best for students who are staying in their region. My cousin lives in a different state with a strong early college program. 4 of her 5 kids have graduated HS with an AA degree and gone on to a mix of public and private Us in their state. It has been a big cost savings for them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We hired a private college counselor for my oldest who is a rising junior. We are fortunate as we can afford full pay at any US college. The college advisor told us that the top 25 colleges look more favourably at AP credits vs. MC credits. She discouraged my son from signing up for MC classes even though his MCPS HS heavily pushes MC classes. Obviously, a kid needing to graduate early from college (UMD) because of financial reasons might make a different choice

I’d strongly encourage you to ask for a refund from your college counselor.

I second this.

Counselor is absolutely correct. The rest of you are ill informed. The ivy’s and next tier schools are not like UMD. They prefer AP and IB. And you should try asking some HS kids about their experience. They will tell you that AP classes are harder than CC classes.

That’s just speculation. You can demonstrate you can handle college level classes in more than one way. For top tier like ivy you won’t get any credit anyways, but you might place out of introductory classes. You can also take an exam placement.

You can call it speculation if you want but it is informed speculation. For kids aiming for top 30 schools, there is no advantage to DE at a community college unless your HS offers a limited number of AP classes. DE is useful if you plan to go to UMD and you want to try and graduate early. The AA degree in HS has you taking lame courses like PE and Health at MC. They also take basic classes like Intro to communications. Do you think top colleges are impressed with that?

I would think it would depend on the content and rigor of the class since Intro to Communications might actually be helpful for a Communciations, Marketing, or Mass Media major. Same w/ Health if you are panning a degree in Nursing, Allied Health, or even Pre-Med.

Communication is one of the easiest college majors. They really don’t care if you have already done intro to communications which is a much easier class at MC than any AP. Also, how do you not know that Health is generally a joke class. Some of you parents are pretty clueless

It depends on many other things. Say there is a student with a genuine interest in a communication major, volunteers to run the website and social media at her high school club, had a summer job at an ad agency, volunteered with the city hall to help publicize the local faire etc. Don’t you think a communication class through DE would be more in line with her interest and give her a stronger boost to admissions than an AP?

Not really. Colleges want students to have a strong foundation. Most students change their major once they get to college any way. The extracurricular activities you mention are enough to signal an interest in communications

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We hired a private college counselor for my oldest who is a rising junior. We are fortunate as we can afford full pay at any US college. The college advisor told us that the top 25 colleges look more favourably at AP credits vs. MC credits. She discouraged my son from signing up for MC classes even though his MCPS HS heavily pushes MC classes. Obviously, a kid needing to graduate early from college (UMD) because of financial reasons might make a different choice

I’d strongly encourage you to ask for a refund from your college counselor.

I second this.

Counselor is absolutely correct. The rest of you are ill informed. The ivy’s and next tier schools are not like UMD. They prefer AP and IB. And you should try asking some HS kids about their experience. They will tell you that AP classes are harder than CC classes.

That’s just speculation. You can demonstrate you can handle college level classes in more than one way. For top tier like ivy you won’t get any credit anyways, but you might place out of introductory classes. You can also take an exam placement.

You can call it speculation if you want but it is informed speculation. For kids aiming for top 30 schools, there is no advantage to DE at a community college unless your HS offers a limited number of AP classes. DE is useful if you plan to go to UMD and you want to try and graduate early. The AA degree in HS has you taking lame courses like PE and Health at MC. They also take basic classes like Intro to communications. Do you think top colleges are impressed with that?

I would think it would depend on the content and rigor of the class since Intro to Communications might actually be helpful for a Communciations, Marketing, or Mass Media major. Same w/ Health if you are panning a degree in Nursing, Allied Health, or even Pre-Med.

Communication is one of the easiest college majors. They really don’t care if you have already done intro to communications which is a much easier class at MC than any AP. Also, how do you not know that Health is generally a joke class. Some of you parents are pretty clueless

It depends on many other things. Say there is a student with a genuine interest in a communication major, volunteers to run the website and social media at her high school club, had a summer job at an ad agency, volunteered with the city hall to help publicize the local faire etc. Don’t you think a communication class through DE would be more in line with her interest and give her a stronger boost to admissions than an AP?

Not really. Colleges want students to have a strong foundation. Most students change their major once they get to college any way. The extracurricular activities you mention are enough to signal an interest in communications

I’m so glad you’re the spokesperson for what colleges want! It’s so much better than going directly to their admissions page.

[Anonymous]

DE, especially getting an associates degree in high school, can be very helpful for kids from families that cannot afford 4 years of undergrad even at an instate school. Many of those kids will be first gen college students, and just getting a bachelor’s without as much debt will put them in a better position than their families are in. It serves a different market than AP or IB. It will not improve admissions chances at selective private colleges unless the student attends a high school where AP or IB aren’t offered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DE, especially getting an associates degree in high school, can be very helpful for kids from families that cannot afford 4 years of undergrad even at an instate school. Many of those kids will be first gen college students, and just getting a bachelor’s without as much debt will put them in a better position than their families are in. It serves a different market than AP or IB. It will not improve admissions chances at selective private colleges unless the student attends a high school where AP or IB aren’t offered.

Unless DE is taken on top of the AP offered at the homeschool, then it can improve admission chances at selective private colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, selective colleges won’t give credit, MIT will mark it as ‘s’, won’t count towards gpa, great that Georgetown will give credit for 4 classes, UC Berkeley will give credit for all etc. pretty sure students applying for MIT don’t put a huge priority on graduating from there early.

The point is DE may have something to offer for many types of students, including the top ones. The return depends on many things, and it’s not clear cut that either IB or AP is ‘better’ or that DE is a ‘scam’.

At my less selective than MIT undergrad college, a student got "credit" for AP or DE from the standpoint of moving to more advanced classes. They still had to undertake the same minimum number of classes as the rest of us to graduate. Graduating early only occurred if you went to summer school and wasn't really a thing anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Unless DE is taken on top of the AP offered at the homeschool, then it can improve admission chances at selective private colleges.

What do you mean by "DE is taken on top of the AP offered at the homeschool"?

[Anonymous]

I know it sounds totally scammy!!