Is dual-enrollment a scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Physics C, Electricity and Magnetism is worse. The second semester general physics is only half electromagnetism with the other half being thermodynamics, which is entirely missing from the AP version.

Of course there’s no third course for AP so optics, atomic physics, essentially all modern physics is just omitted.

At least for physics, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that DE is weaker than AP or honors classes.

Heat, thermodynamics, and modern physics is all covered in AP Physics 2 (Algebra Based).

So it's hard to see the difference without digging into compare problem sets and exams.


https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-physics-2-algebra-based

Sorry, but you can’t compare the AP Physics 1 or 2, which are algebra based (aka physics for dummies), with any calculus based physics class.

You just have to glance over the syllabus to realize the difference is night and day, no need to check any homework or exam. Without calculus most concepts are introduced in a very simplistic manner, and the class is essentially plugging numbers into formulas.

It's pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about and are speaking from prejudice.

General Physics doesn't use multivariable or or linear algebra or the Lagrangian or Hamiltonian formulations, so it's also "physics for dummies", to use your term.

Calculus is needed for solving more complex problems in Physics, of course. It is not needed for the concepts of physics.

Of course the physics and math need to merge eventually at the upper level, but students who have studied Algebra (really Algebra 2 and Precalculus -backed) physics, and then fill in calculus physics in the C series, are as well or more prepared than students who only do 3 semesters of general physics.

Heat, Thermodynamics, Relativity are all treated in depth in upper level physics courses. One week of doing an integral in thermodynamics won't make or break a physics career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Physics C, Electricity and Magnetism is worse. The second semester general physics is only half electromagnetism with the other half being thermodynamics, which is entirely missing from the AP version.

Of course there’s no third course for AP so optics, atomic physics, essentially all modern physics is just omitted.

At least for physics, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that DE is weaker than AP or honors classes.

Heat, thermodynamics, and modern physics is all covered in AP Physics 2 (Algebra Based).

So it's hard to see the difference without digging into compare problem sets and exams.


https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-physics-2-algebra-based

Sorry, but you can’t compare the AP Physics 1 or 2, which are algebra based (aka physics for dummies), with any calculus based physics class.

You just have to glance over the syllabus to realize the difference is night and day, no need to check any homework or exam. Without calculus most concepts are introduced in a very simplistic manner, and the class is essentially plugging numbers into formulas.

It's pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about and are speaking from prejudice.

General Physics doesn't use multivariable or or linear algebra or the Lagrangian or Hamiltonian formulations, so it's also "physics for dummies", to use your term.

Calculus is needed for solving more complex problems in Physics, of course. It is not needed for the concepts of physics.

Of course the physics and math need to merge eventually at the upper level, but students who have studied Algebra (really Algebra 2 and Precalculus -backed) physics, and then fill in calculus physics in the C series, are as well or more prepared than students who only do 3 semesters of general physics.

Heat, Thermodynamics, Relativity are all treated in depth in upper level physics courses. One week of doing an integral in thermodynamics won't make or break a physics career.

The thread is not about making or breaking careers in physics it’s about comparing AP with DE classes, which supposedly are a scam, not very rigorous, and generally for low gpa, low income students that are mainly motivated by financial reasons.

From what you’re saying a student going the AP route should take Physics 1 and 2, then both Physics C to fill in the calculus parts for a total of 4 years!, assuming they don’t double. Meanwhile through DE, a student can take three semesters of calculus based general physics, cover more material, and go in more depth in all areas.

The second and third semester of general Physics college class does require multivariable as a pre or co-requisite (thermodynamics, electromagnetism). To say calculus is not needed for teaching concepts concepts is simply disingenuous. Sure there are Algebra based introductory college physics classes, but these are not for science and engineering majors.

I’m not entirely sure what your point is. If you’re trying to argue that students are more prepared through AP Physics than DE, because they’ll take 4 years of physics instead of 1.5, that’s pretty weak. If you look at the syllabus it’s clear there’s a significant difference in favor of the DE. But, you’re saying that it doesn’t matter since if they are interested in physics they’ll take more advanced class work later. How is that an argument for anything? Your entire argumentation is just scattered and unfocused.

[Anonymous]

OP here. The Hechinger Report did a very thorough report on the insane spike in DE numbers:
https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-high-schoolers-account-for-nearly-1-out-of-every-5-community-college-students/

And guess what? Many of the concerns and motives I raised were borne out in the reporting.

First off, the rigor between DE and AP/IB is not the same. On the whole, there are major questions about the true rigor of DE and many kids turn to DE because they see it as easier than AP/IB:

Students are flocking to these courses because they perceive that it’s easier to earn college credits through dual enrollment than through Advanced Placement, said University of Iowa’s An. With Advanced Placement, students have to score high enough on an exam to earn college credit. With dual enrollment, a passing grade is sufficient.

The sharp growth in dual enrollment has raised a lot of questions about course content and whether students are really producing college-level work. John Fink, an expert in dual enrollment at the Community College Research Center, acknowledged that quality is uneven. That’s not surprising when 80 percent of high schools are now offering these courses and there’s decentralized oversight among thousands of colleges around the country. But colleges that oversee these courses are trying to improve quality, Fink said.

Additionally, community colleges make money on high school students at scale and high school students are filling seats that otherwise would go unfilled since the pool people who want to attend community colleges is shrinking:

colleges can turn dual enrollment programs into a modest money maker when they serve more students, according to a February 2023 analysis by the Community College Research Center. Once fixed costs are covered, each additional student means an increase in revenues. For example, adding an additional high school teacher to an existing instructor training program isn’t very costly and could open up dozens more student slots, each generating income that flows to the college.

The reason that dual enrollments have become such a big slice of community colleges’ offerings is not only because more high school students are taking these courses, but also because fewer traditional students want to attend community colleges. When the pandemic hit in 2020, there were shocking double digit drops in enrollment at community colleges. Dual enrollment classes at many high schools temporarily shut down too, but they dramatically rebounded in 2022-23. Meanwhile, traditional students haven’t been returning to community colleges in large numbers, thanks to a strong job market. High school students even make up the majority of students at 31 community colleges, my colleague Jon Marcus found.

In fairness to the DE proponents on here, DE does seem to keep kids who might otherwise not go on to college otherwise to stay the course. Ironically, it's not black and brown kids who that's working for, which was the main argument DE advocates were pushing:

research points to better outcomes for students. Between similar students with comparable grades and family backgrounds, the student who takes a dual enrollment class is more likely to graduate high school, enroll in college and earn a college degree, many studies have found. In 2017, the What Works Clearinghouse, a unit of the Department of Education that reviews education research, gave dual enrollment its stamp of approval with a strong level of evidence for it.

In qualitative research interviews, students described how dual enrollment courses taught them how to take notes or study for a test, helping them feel more prepared for college. Much of the benefit may be in boosting a student’s confidence and soft skills, and not necessarily in teaching academic content, University of Iowa’s An explained.

A big downside to dual enrollment is that students of color are underrepresented. That’s an ironic outcome given that advocates, including the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, pushed the expansion of these programs to help promote college going and attainment among Black and Hispanic students. Only one fifth of high schools have managed to enroll Black and Hispanic students in dual enrollment classes at the same or higher rates as white students, Fink said.

[Anonymous]

Is the point college credit or taking a hard class? If it is to get college credit, the program appears to be achieving its goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Physics C, Electricity and Magnetism is worse. The second semester general physics is only half electromagnetism with the other half being thermodynamics, which is entirely missing from the AP version.

Of course there’s no third course for AP so optics, atomic physics, essentially all modern physics is just omitted.


At least for physics, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that DE is weaker than AP or honors classes.

Heat, thermodynamics, and modern physics is all covered in AP Physics 2 (Algebra Based).

So it's hard to see the difference without digging into compare problem sets and exams.


https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-physics-2-algebra-based

Sorry, but you can’t compare the AP Physics 1 or 2, which are algebra based (aka physics for dummies), with any calculus based physics class.

You just have to glance over the syllabus to realize the difference is night and day, no need to check any homework or exam. Without calculus most concepts are introduced in a very simplistic manner, and the class is essentially plugging numbers into formulas.

You don’t know what you are talking about. AP Physics 1 is the opposite of plugging in numbers into formulas. I know kids at my MCPS HS who took Physics with Calculus (Mechanics) at MC after AP Physics 1 and said it was an easy class after AP Physics 1. They also took E&M at MC and found it fairly easy. Stop exaggerating about the CC classes.

[Anonymous]

NP here. I don’t know about DE classes but my kid took AP Physics 1 junior year followed by AP Physics C (both mechanics and E&M) and was able to skip the first year college physics classes in his Engineering program at a top 10 school