Is dual-enrollment a scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

Where on earth did you get that all DE courses are taught by professors with PhDs? That's hilarious. Also hilarious that you think the AP curriculum is not rigorous just because it's taught by high school teachers. My senior at Walter Johnson has AP teachers that are tougher graders and have higher standards than my undergrad professors!!!

The issue is that there is a range of rigor for ALL of these courses, depending on the schools and teachers. Many students just take the AP courses without the exams, but if you get a 4 or 5 on your AP exams, that is the proof you mastered the material. DE courses do not have national exams. Selective universities are WELL aware of all these shenanigans, BTW. As a result, more attention is paid during the admissions process to students with high AP scores on the exams. Unlike kids who didn't take the exams, or kids who did DE, they have evidence of their achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

You are correct. The people who think AP is better than real college credit are delusional and most of them clearly have not had a kid apply to college.

Ha ha ha! This board is FULL of families whose kids have done tons of APs and who are in college or are applying to college.
We all know DE is a crock for the wealthy and ambitious, because the universities our kids are enrolled it, or applying to, look down on dual enrollment, for all the reasons stated ***repeatedly*** on this thread.
DE is a great choice for lower-income students, and that's it. As such, it has a place in high school education and it is valuable. I support it. OP's original point was in part that DE was sold to ALL students as a panacea, whereas the reality is definitely more nuanced accordingly to family income and academic goals, and that's why she called it a "scam". I agree with her that MCPS is trying to sell it as hard as possible, in part because MC's enrollment in falling. There is conflict of interest here. You can't entirely trust what MCPS is selling. But as long as you keep this in mind, it's all good, because DE does have a lot of advantages for some.

So please, don't pretend you understand the finer points and politics of this discussion.

Then I guess we're neither wealthy nor ambitious, because my kid's credits from MC (which we did not have to pay for) counted as much at UMD as the AP tests (which we did).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

You are correct. The people who think AP is better than real college credit are delusional and most of them clearly have not had a kid apply to college.

Ha ha ha! This board is FULL of families whose kids have done tons of APs and who are in college or are applying to college.
We all know DE is a crock for the wealthy and ambitious, because the universities our kids are enrolled it, or applying to, look down on dual enrollment, for all the reasons stated ***repeatedly*** on this thread.
DE is a great choice for lower-income students, and that's it. As such, it has a place in high school education and it is valuable. I support it. OP's original point was in part that DE was sold to ALL students as a panacea, whereas the reality is definitely more nuanced accordingly to family income and academic goals, and that's why she called it a "scam". I agree with her that MCPS is trying to sell it as hard as possible, in part because MC's enrollment in falling. There is conflict of interest here. You can't entirely trust what MCPS is selling. But as long as you keep this in mind, it's all good, because DE does have a lot of advantages for some.

So please, don't pretend you understand the finer points and politics of this discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

You are correct. The people who think AP is better than real college credit are delusional and most of them clearly have not had a kid apply to college.

Ha ha ha! This board is FULL of families whose kids have done tons of APs and who are in college or are applying to college.
We all know DE is a crock for the wealthy and ambitious, because the universities our kids are enrolled it, or applying to, look down on dual enrollment, for all the reasons stated ***repeatedly*** on this thread.
DE is a great choice for lower-income students, and that's it. As such, it has a place in high school education and it is valuable. I support it. OP's original point was in part that DE was sold to ALL students as a panacea, whereas the reality is definitely more nuanced accordingly to family income and academic goals, and that's why she called it a "scam". I agree with her that MCPS is trying to sell it as hard as possible, in part because MC's enrollment in falling. There is conflict of interest here. You can't entirely trust what MCPS is selling. But as long as you keep this in mind, it's all good, because DE does have a lot of advantages for some.

So please, don't pretend you understand the finer points and politics of this discussion.

Ok new PP. we are a higher income DCUM family at a W. 1 kid through college already and 1 is graduating this spring, one still at the W. In our view the DE was worthwhile for one or two classes to demonstrate an interest or expertise in a topic or major, in addition to APs. Like math or psychology. Our kids took the APs and scored 4s and 5s. Now I wouldn’t have let them do a full Associates degree while in HS, but maybe that’s the right thing for some kids (maybe super accelerated or mature or whatever). One of our DCs is at an Ivy for grad school and one applying to grad school now. One or two classes though, is a nice way to distinguish your college apps. But only if you take as a college course, not a high school course (this only works if your student have plenty of credits from taking HS courses in MS).

Let me add that during spring 2020, when MCPS closed down and couldn’t figure out remote classes, the MC professor simply went to Zoom and didn’t miss a beat. We will forever be grateful for that as it gave my class of 2020 student something to be challenged by and saved the spring semester from being a total wash.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most top tier colleges will give you credit But Not get you out of a class, because they know they aren’t has challenging as a real college class

Most kids aren’t going to “top tier colleges” so that’s irrelevant.

Even UMD Honors is elite. They would rather have college credit than AP. I saw follow the $.

Umm not sure this is true? DS went to UMD Honors and they took his APs. Don’t think he would have graduated in time without those AP credits (Engineering).

[Anonymous]

Most of the kids I know whomgraduated from UMD in 3 1/2 years (and it saved a lot of $) did so with then help of DE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

You are correct. The people who think AP is better than real college credit are delusional and most of them clearly have not had a kid apply to college.

Ha ha ha! This board is FULL of families whose kids have done tons of APs and who are in college or are applying to college.
We all know DE is a crock for the wealthy and ambitious, because the universities our kids are enrolled it, or applying to, look down on dual enrollment, for all the reasons stated ***repeatedly*** on this thread.
DE is a great choice for lower-income students, and that's it. As such, it has a place in high school education and it is valuable. I support it. OP's original point was in part that DE was sold to ALL students as a panacea, whereas the reality is definitely more nuanced accordingly to family income and academic goals, and that's why she called it a "scam". I agree with her that MCPS is trying to sell it as hard as possible, in part because MC's enrollment in falling. There is conflict of interest here. You can't entirely trust what MCPS is selling. But as long as you keep this in mind, it's all good, because DE does have a lot of advantages for some.

So please, don't pretend you understand the finer points and politics of this discussion.

Um what? . What Universities look down on it? The people I know at U of SC got a ton of money because their application stood out. The ones at Carnegie Mellon got IN, which is a feat unto itself. The UMD kids got Honors (more $, earlier registration for classes, better dorms, etc), and so on. Non of these kids took all classes at MC, but 1-3: math, science, foreign Lang, science etc.... You are the delusional one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

Where on earth did you get that all DE courses are taught by professors with PhDs? That's hilarious. Also hilarious that you think the AP curriculum is not rigorous just because it's taught by high school teachers. My senior at Walter Johnson has AP teachers that are tougher graders and have higher standards than my undergrad professors!!!

The issue is that there is a range of rigor for ALL of these courses, depending on the schools and teachers. Many students just take the AP courses without the exams, but if you get a 4 or 5 on your AP exams, that is the proof you mastered the material. DE courses do not have national exams. Selective universities are WELL aware of all these shenanigans, BTW. As a result, more attention is paid during the admissions process to students with high AP scores on the exams. Unlike kids who didn't take the exams, or kids who did DE, they have evidence of their achievement.

Dang, I looked it up. MC staff PhD rate - by their own numbers - is merely 40%. OK, that is low. With all those unemployed PhDs working as barristas, I wonder why MC can't up that number.
And yes, your point about the APs being national standardized tests is valid.

Well, we still have a few years to think about it, but I suspect we will be falling in the "unwealthy and unambitious" category and doing DE, possibly even dropping out of magnet to do that.

[Anonymous]

So...recently, I found out my kid's friend who is super bright and had committed to the IB diploma program for next year, has changed his mind and will now attend the DE program at MC. When I asked why he'd switched, my son said that their teacher, who is also a professor at Montgomery College, told them that IB is a "waste of time" and "stressful." She says they'd be better off getting college credits from the DE program rather than IB.

This is so sad because she teaches IB classes, but clearly, as a Montgomery College professor, she has a vested interest in propping up enrollment numbers at her college. This is what I mean when I say MCPS is PUSHING DE on kids.

I had to point to my son, all of the data and research that shows how distinguished kids who complete the IB program are to counteract the false narrative his teacher was saying. MCPS and Montgomery College have an incestuous relationship and they're using each other for mutual benefit, not for the betterment of our kids.

[Anonymous]

It’s not always true that AP courses are more rigorous than dual enrollment at community college.

Of course it varies by school and teacher, but at least for Physics, DE is more comprehensive than AP Physics C, while AP Physics 1 and 2 are useless for the student that is seriously interested and capable to handle more difficult material.

The quality of teachers seems to be slightly better at community college, as I’ve seen high school teachers that lack an undergrad major in the subject that are teaching, while most CC staff have advanced degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I very much doubt DE is being pushed at the wealthy UMC schools like Whitman and Churchill.
Highly selective colleges and universities tend to prefer AP credits to community college credits but MCPS will never tell you that

People on this thread keep saying that, and I find it surprising. Being a former Ivy-league student myself ages ago, and having taken AP classes that counted for nothing (besides letting me skip a semester of Calculus) I would think that DE/community college classes would be considered at least as academically challenging as AP classes. I mean DE is almost always taught by actual professors with actual PhDs, not quite the story with AP.

So why the hate towards DE? And can someone (you maybe?) cite a reference for this disdain by elite schools? Seems bass ackwards.

I am truly curious - my assumption before this thread was that DE would trump AP any day!

Where on earth did you get that all DE courses are taught by professors with PhDs? That's hilarious. Also hilarious that you think the AP curriculum is not rigorous just because it's taught by high school teachers. My senior at Walter Johnson has AP teachers that are tougher graders and have higher standards than my undergrad professors!!!

The issue is that there is a range of rigor for ALL of these courses, depending on the schools and teachers. Many students just take the AP courses without the exams, but if you get a 4 or 5 on your AP exams, that is the proof you mastered the material. DE courses do not have national exams. Selective universities are WELL aware of all these shenanigans, BTW. As a result, more attention is paid during the admissions process to students with high AP scores on the exams. Unlike kids who didn't take the exams, or kids who did DE, they have evidence of their achievement.

Dang, I looked it up. MC staff PhD rate - by their own numbers - is merely 40%. OK, that is low. With all those unemployed PhDs working as barristas, I wonder why MC can't up that number.
And yes, your point about the APs being national standardized tests is valid.

Well, we still have a few years to think about it, but I suspect we will be falling in the "unwealthy and unambitious" category and doing DE, possibly even dropping out of magnet to do that.

What’s the PhD rate at your kids high school? I’m pretty sure it’s below 40%.

[Anonymous]

It’s not a scam. We are at a W school. DC1 took DE and really benefited. It prepared her for college classroom expectations. She did lots of research and group projects which was not true of her APs. In addition, it allowed her to explore a wider range of topics than were available with AP as she wasn’t a STEM kid. I seriously doubt it negatively impacted college admissions. I think it looked good. My youngest will take DE as a senior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s not always true that AP courses are more rigorous than dual enrollment at community college.

Of course it varies by school and teacher, but at least for Physics, DE is more comprehensive than AP Physics C, while AP Physics 1 and 2 are useless for the student that is seriously interested and capable to handle more difficult material.

The quality of teachers seems to be slightly better at community college, as I’ve seen high school teachers that lack an undergrad major in the subject that are teaching, while most CC staff have advanced degrees.

For sciences, the laboratory part of the class is also more in depth than AP counterparts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So...recently, I found out my kid's friend who is super bright and had committed to the IB diploma program for next year, has changed his mind and will now attend the DE program at MC. When I asked why he'd switched, my son said that their teacher, who is also a professor at Montgomery College, told them that IB is a "waste of time" and "stressful." She says they'd be better off getting college credits from the DE program rather than IB.

This is so sad because she teaches IB classes, but clearly, as a Montgomery College professor, she has a vested interest in propping up enrollment numbers at her college. This is what I mean when I say MCPS is PUSHING DE on kids.

I had to point to my son, all of the data and research that shows how distinguished kids who complete the IB program are to counteract the false narrative his teacher was saying. MCPS and Montgomery College have an incestuous relationship and they're using each other for mutual benefit, not for the betterment of our kids.

MC enrollment is tanking and has been for years. The Council keeps trying to prop it up with new gimmicks, but none are working. MC today is primarily a place for adult education (non-credit) classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...recently, I found out my kid's friend who is super bright and had committed to the IB diploma program for next year, has changed his mind and will now attend the DE program at MC. When I asked why he'd switched, my son said that their teacher, who is also a professor at Montgomery College, told them that IB is a "waste of time" and "stressful." She says they'd be better off getting college credits from the DE program rather than IB.

This is so sad because she teaches IB classes, but clearly, as a Montgomery College professor, she has a vested interest in propping up enrollment numbers at her college. This is what I mean when I say MCPS is PUSHING DE on kids.

I had to point to my son, all of the data and research that shows how distinguished kids who complete the IB program are to counteract the false narrative his teacher was saying. MCPS and Montgomery College have an incestuous relationship and they're using each other for mutual benefit, not for the betterment of our kids.

MC enrollment is tanking and has been for years. The Council keeps trying to prop it up with new gimmicks, but none are working. MC today is primarily a place for adult education (non-credit) classes.

Declining enrollment is an issue for the entire higher education, not only community college.

The vested interest observation is a little silly, because everyone has a vested interest: IB to sell their curriculum, college board to sell the AP tests, CC’s to boost enrollment. Essentially they all sell an educational product.

A claim was made that CC dual enrollment education is inferior to others, in my view a pretty baseless claim. Anecdotal evidence from posters on this thread show a positive experience with CC DE.