Is dual-enrollment a scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Unless DE is taken on top of the AP offered at the homeschool, then it can improve admission chances at selective private colleges.

What do you mean by "DE is taken on top of the AP offered at the homeschool"?

Take the AP available at high school in the area of interest, like AP Calculus BC, AP Physics, AP Chemistry then take at CC through DE multivariable, linear algebra and organic chemistry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, selective colleges won’t give credit, MIT will mark it as ‘s’, won’t count towards gpa, great that Georgetown will give credit for 4 classes, UC Berkeley will give credit for all etc. pretty sure students applying for MIT don’t put a huge priority on graduating from there early.

The point is DE may have something to offer for many types of students, including the top ones. The return depends on many things, and it’s not clear cut that either IB or AP is ‘better’ or that DE is a ‘scam’.

At my less selective than MIT undergrad college, a student got "credit" for AP or DE from the standpoint of moving to more advanced classes. They still had to undertake the same minimum number of classes as the rest of us to graduate. Graduating early only occurred if you went to summer school and wasn't really a thing anyway.

This is because it’s in the college’s interest to have students pay for 4yrs. That said, getting to more advance course work earlier can have benefits in terms of internships and providing ability to be able to pursue graduate studies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

You are tripping if you believe this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

You are tripping if you believe this.

This exactly. I teach HS honors science classes. I have kids getting Cs in my class who are in dual enrolment.
They are not good students but the school has pushed them into dual enrolment. And they complain to me about my class being harder than their MC classes which is ridiculous because my class is not very hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

You are tripping if you believe this.

This exactly. I teach HS honors science classes. I have kids getting Cs in my class who are in dual enrolment.
They are not good students but the school has pushed them into dual enrolment. And they complain to me about my class being harder than their MC classes which is ridiculous because my class is not very hard.

What science class are you teaching and what class are you comparing with for dual enrollment?

At our local CC, there’s the easy and rigorous version for Physics, Chemistry and Biology. The Physics instructor has a master in applied physics from UC Berkeley. Their textbook is this:
https://openstax.org/details/books/physics

I have a PhD in Physics from MIT and I am certain that no high school physics class comes even close to the three semester General Physics introductory sequence at the community college, and I’m including not only the honors but also the AP Physics 1, 2, and C classes.

Compare this with the teacher qualifications and syllabus at the high school where you teach and draw your own conclusion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

You are tripping if you believe this.

This exactly. I teach HS honors science classes. I have kids getting Cs in my class who are in dual enrolment.
They are not good students but the school has pushed them into dual enrolment. And they complain to me about my class being harder than their MC classes which is ridiculous because my class is not very hard.

What science class are you teaching and what class are you comparing with for dual enrollment?

At our local CC, there’s the easy and rigorous version for Physics, Chemistry and Biology. The Physics instructor has a master in applied physics from UC Berkeley. Their textbook is this:
https://openstax.org/details/books/physics

I have a PhD in Physics from MIT and I am certain that no high school physics class comes even close to the three semester General Physics introductory sequence at the community college, and I’m including not only the honors but also the AP Physics 1, 2, and C classes.

Compare this with the teacher qualifications and syllabus at the high school where you teach and draw your own conclusion.

Correction on the textbook, listed the wrong version.

https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-1
https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-2
https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

You are tripping if you believe this.

This exactly. I teach HS honors science classes. I have kids getting Cs in my class who are in dual enrolment.
They are not good students but the school has pushed them into dual enrolment. And they complain to me about my class being harder than their MC classes which is ridiculous because my class is not very hard.

What science class are you teaching and what class are you comparing with for dual enrollment?

At our local CC, there’s the easy and rigorous version for Physics, Chemistry and Biology. The Physics instructor has a master in applied physics from UC Berkeley. Their textbook is this:
https://openstax.org/details/books/physics

I have a PhD in Physics from MIT and I am certain that no high school physics class comes even close to the three semester General Physics introductory sequence at the community college, and I’m including not only the honors but also the AP Physics 1, 2, and C classes.

Compare this with the teacher qualifications and syllabus at the high school where you teach and draw your own conclusion.

Can you give an example of a difference between AP Physics C and Rigorous Physics Mechanics?

[Anonymous]

DE classes were great for my kid. It allowed her to take a lighter load in a rigorous major (BSN) when she went to a 4 year college since most of the lower division general ed classes were out of the way. It also left time in the schedule to take an additional minor. It was a great training ground for how to succeed in a college class. Some of her college friends (from excellent high schools btw) were crashing and burning the first couple of semesters because they didn’t know how to study for a college class, plus the lack of hand holding given as compared to high school. Finally, some schools are moving away from giving AP credit but the DE credits were more easily transferred (most colleges have a place where you can see what will transfer in).

[Anonymous]

^^^ plus should have been “with”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Early College Program has an entrance GPA of 2.75, and people seriously think this is the option that will provide a more rigorous cohort????

Kids that work independently and have a strong work ethic will be fine even in a less “rigorous cohort”, whatever the impact you might imagine it to be.

If your kid needs a lot of hand holding and you need pester him all the time to turn in his assignments, then clearly Early College Program is not right for him.

AP, DE, and IB are roughly on the same level for college admissions and educational opportunities in general. You’re failing miserably trying to demonstrate DE is inferior to the others. In reality the best of the three will depend a lot on the circumstances of the student like what’s offered at his home school, intended major, interests, extracurriculars, colleges applied to etc. In my child’s particular case, DE>AP>IB. You can draw your own conclusions and act accordingly to the information available to you. But to say dual enrollment is a scam, it just shows how little you know about higher education.

First, I didn't say it was a scam, but I would argue that it is the not the proper option for advanced high school students (with the exception of math and science that is not offered at the high school level, because those courses are self-selecting.) Cohort matters. That is why everyone continually complains on this board about middle school classes. A teacher simply cannot teach the same course to kids who have achieved a 2.75 GPA and those who are much more advanced. What does the quality of cohort have to do with hand-holding?

I am a high school teacher, so I know that the underlined is true.

(Community) College classes are taught to the top students, high school classes are taught to the mean. In college nobody is going to care if you’re struggling in Calculus, it’s up to you to show to office hours ask questions etc. High school, it’s a different story, parents are more involved, they call you after the 60% quiz etc. they start monitoring assignments etc. If that’s not hand holding you tell me what it is.

You are tripping if you believe this.

This exactly. I teach HS honors science classes. I have kids getting Cs in my class who are in dual enrolment.
They are not good students but the school has pushed them into dual enrolment. And they complain to me about my class being harder than their MC classes which is ridiculous because my class is not very hard.

What science class are you teaching and what class are you comparing with for dual enrollment?

At our local CC, there’s the easy and rigorous version for Physics, Chemistry and Biology. The Physics instructor has a master in applied physics from UC Berkeley. Their textbook is this:
https://openstax.org/details/books/physics

I have a PhD in Physics from MIT and I am certain that no high school physics class comes even close to the three semester General Physics introductory sequence at the community college, and I’m including not only the honors but also the AP Physics 1, 2, and C classes.

Compare this with the teacher qualifications and syllabus at the high school where you teach and draw your own conclusion.

Can you give an example of a difference between AP Physics C and Rigorous Physics Mechanics?

Waves, fluid mechanics, elasticity, dimensional analysis.

[Anonymous]

AP Physics C, Electricity and Magnetism is worse. The second semester general physics is only half electromagnetism with the other half being thermodynamics, which is entirely missing from the AP version.

Of course there’s no third course for AP so optics, atomic physics, essentially all modern physics is just omitted.

At least for physics, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that DE is weaker than AP or honors classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP Physics C, Electricity and Magnetism is worse. The second semester general physics is only half electromagnetism with the other half being thermodynamics, which is entirely missing from the AP version.

Of course there’s no third course for AP so optics, atomic physics, essentially all modern physics is just omitted.

At least for physics, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that DE is weaker than AP or honors classes.

Heat, thermodynamics, and modern physics is all covered in AP Physics 2 (Algebra Based).

So it's hard to see the difference without digging into compare problem sets and exams.


https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-physics-2-algebra-based

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Physics C, Electricity and Magnetism is worse. The second semester general physics is only half electromagnetism with the other half being thermodynamics, which is entirely missing from the AP version.

Of course there’s no third course for AP so optics, atomic physics, essentially all modern physics is just omitted.

At least for physics, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that DE is weaker than AP or honors classes.

Heat, thermodynamics, and modern physics is all covered in AP Physics 2 (Algebra Based).

So it's hard to see the difference without digging into compare problem sets and exams.


https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-physics-2-algebra-based

Sorry, but you can’t compare the AP Physics 1 or 2, which are algebra based (aka physics for dummies), with any calculus based physics class.

You just have to glance over the syllabus to realize the difference is night and day, no need to check any homework or exam. Without calculus most concepts are introduced in a very simplistic manner, and the class is essentially plugging numbers into formulas.