Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn't even very good)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

Telling someone they have no musical taste may be obnoxious and condescending, but it’s not gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a severe form of abuse where the perpetrator physically and repeatedly manipulates reality to make the victim psychologically, physically and emotionally dependent on the perpetrator. An example would be an abuser taking the victim’s purse, which she left on a chair and hiding it in a closet. When the victim goes to get her purse, she is confused as to why it is not there and questions her memory and sanity when it’s found in the closet.


Since you’re having so much difficulty understanding the definition of gaslighting, I’ve cut and pasted a link to the Merriam Webster definition for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting


Also, it’s really hard not to be condescending when you’re dealing with someone who throws out serious allegations of abuse just because people question her musical tastes. That’s so offensive to real victims of gaslighting.

For the last time, I am not saying telling people they have bad taste in music is gaslighting. I'm saying there are posters on this thread saying that people will one day wake up to a different reality, where they regret or bemoan their enjoyment of someone's music. It is insane to say that.

They are saying, what you think you are experiencing you are not experiencing.

That.is.gaslighting. My god.

OMG! That.is.NOT.gaslighting! In order for an act to qualify as gaslighting by its proper definition, the person or persons doing it, must gain something, usually financial, from the victim they are gaslighting. What are any of these posters gaining out of those they are allegedly gaslighting? Nothing. Therefore, this is not gaslighting, no matter how many times you insist it is.

I don't know what they are gaining from it, but they are gaining something. Fleeting feelings of superiority I assume.

See, there you go again, shifting definitions and trying to squeeze a square peg into a circle hole. No one is gaslighting you. They are sharing their opinions and you don’t like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

I'm 100% with you. Referencing Graceland to DEFEND Swift's music is insane to me. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen phrases of music from that album that are so instantly recognizable and evocative.

And it was released nearly 40 years ago! Also don't discount the fact that Simon was doing something musically interesting with that album, incorporating African rhythms, instruments, and vocalizations with an American approach to songwriting and lyricism in a way no-one had ever heard before and that actually made the album controversial -- Simon has been accused of cultural appropriation many times for that album, though it's an open debate because Simon actually collaborated with and hired many African artists, including the Zulu choir Ladysmith Black Mumbazo (who toured and Simon and appeared with him on SNL in a pretty famous appearance).

I still think you can argue the ethics of what Simon did but it's harder to argue with the results. Whether you credit Simon alone for the brilliance of Graceland or you view it as a successful product of cross-polinization of musical styles and techniques, the truth is that Graceland is a work of genius that stands the test of time.

There is no equivalent Taylor Swift album and I think she is too careful and risk-averse as a business person to produce one. Simon went to Africa, because endlessly inspired by what he heard there, and made something controversial and new. George Harrison did something similar with his travels in Southeast Asia. Swift's musical moves tend to be carefully planned and attuned to the existing preferences of her current fan base, or to capture an additional corner of the market without offending her current fans. It's a recipe for mediocrity, not innovation. Which is why Folklore and evermore sound kind of like indie albums from lesser known bands, but not TOO much like them, and certainly don't do anything new or exciting musically. It was a good way for Swift to capture some casual fans of bands like the National and Vampire Weekend without pissing off her core fanbase, who are more middle-of-the-road pop fans.

Paul Simon is not a saint nor my personal hero (I think he was kind of a jerk in his relationships and probably self-centered and arrogant), but he made a truly amazing album of music. Taylor Swift could be the perfect human being, but I can't say the same about her musical achievements. She's okay, nothing more, and that is by design.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

I'm 100% with you. Referencing Graceland to DEFEND Swift's music is insane to me. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen phrases of music from that album that are so instantly recognizable and evocative.

And it was released nearly 40 years ago! Also don't discount the fact that Simon was doing something musically interesting with that album, incorporating African rhythms, instruments, and vocalizations with an American approach to songwriting and lyricism in a way no-one had ever heard before and that actually made the album controversial -- Simon has been accused of cultural appropriation many times for that album, though it's an open debate because Simon actually collaborated with and hired many African artists, including the Zulu choir Ladysmith Black Mumbazo (who toured and Simon and appeared with him on SNL in a pretty famous appearance).

I still think you can argue the ethics of what Simon did but it's harder to argue with the results. Whether you credit Simon alone for the brilliance of Graceland or you view it as a successful product of cross-polinization of musical styles and techniques, the truth is that Graceland is a work of genius that stands the test of time.

There is no equivalent Taylor Swift album and I think she is too careful and risk-averse as a business person to produce one. Simon went to Africa, because endlessly inspired by what he heard there, and made something controversial and new. George Harrison did something similar with his travels in Southeast Asia. Swift's musical moves tend to be carefully planned and attuned to the existing preferences of her current fan base, or to capture an additional corner of the market without offending her current fans. It's a recipe for mediocrity, not innovation. Which is why Folklore and evermore sound kind of like indie albums from lesser known bands, but not TOO much like them, and certainly don't do anything new or exciting musically. It was a good way for Swift to capture some casual fans of bands like the National and Vampire Weekend without pissing off her core fanbase, who are more middle-of-the-road pop fans.

Paul Simon is not a saint nor my personal hero (I think he was kind of a jerk in his relationships and probably self-centered and arrogant), but he made a truly amazing album of music. Taylor Swift could be the perfect human being, but I can't say the same about her musical achievements. She's okay, nothing more, and that is by design.

The irony is it was a Swift detractor that first made the Paul Simon comparison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

I'm 100% with you. Referencing Graceland to DEFEND Swift's music is insane to me. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen phrases of music from that album that are so instantly recognizable and evocative.

And it was released nearly 40 years ago! Also don't discount the fact that Simon was doing something musically interesting with that album, incorporating African rhythms, instruments, and vocalizations with an American approach to songwriting and lyricism in a way no-one had ever heard before and that actually made the album controversial -- Simon has been accused of cultural appropriation many times for that album, though it's an open debate because Simon actually collaborated with and hired many African artists, including the Zulu choir Ladysmith Black Mumbazo (who toured and Simon and appeared with him on SNL in a pretty famous appearance).

I still think you can argue the ethics of what Simon did but it's harder to argue with the results. Whether you credit Simon alone for the brilliance of Graceland or you view it as a successful product of cross-polinization of musical styles and techniques, the truth is that Graceland is a work of genius that stands the test of time.

There is no equivalent Taylor Swift album and I think she is too careful and risk-averse as a business person to produce one. Simon went to Africa, because endlessly inspired by what he heard there, and made something controversial and new. George Harrison did something similar with his travels in Southeast Asia. Swift's musical moves tend to be carefully planned and attuned to the existing preferences of her current fan base, or to capture an additional corner of the market without offending her current fans. It's a recipe for mediocrity, not innovation. Which is why Folklore and evermore sound kind of like indie albums from lesser known bands, but not TOO much like them, and certainly don't do anything new or exciting musically. It was a good way for Swift to capture some casual fans of bands like the National and Vampire Weekend without pissing off her core fanbase, who are more middle-of-the-road pop fans.

Paul Simon is not a saint nor my personal hero (I think he was kind of a jerk in his relationships and probably self-centered and arrogant), but he made a truly amazing album of music. Taylor Swift could be the perfect human being, but I can't say the same about her musical achievements. She's okay, nothing more, and that is by design.

The irony is it was a Swift detractor that first made the Paul Simon comparison.

I believe they reference Simon to draw a negative comparison. To say "here is an example of truly great lyricis" and then to compare Swift negatively, as an example of mediocre or bad lyrics.

So, actually not ironic.

Perhaps Swift should write a song called "dictionary" and sell a Taylor Swift branded dictionary in her tour merchanise?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

I'm 100% with you. Referencing Graceland to DEFEND Swift's music is insane to me. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen phrases of music from that album that are so instantly recognizable and evocative.

And it was released nearly 40 years ago! Also don't discount the fact that Simon was doing something musically interesting with that album, incorporating African rhythms, instruments, and vocalizations with an American approach to songwriting and lyricism in a way no-one had ever heard before and that actually made the album controversial -- Simon has been accused of cultural appropriation many times for that album, though it's an open debate because Simon actually collaborated with and hired many African artists, including the Zulu choir Ladysmith Black Mumbazo (who toured and Simon and appeared with him on SNL in a pretty famous appearance).

I still think you can argue the ethics of what Simon did but it's harder to argue with the results. Whether you credit Simon alone for the brilliance of Graceland or you view it as a successful product of cross-polinization of musical styles and techniques, the truth is that Graceland is a work of genius that stands the test of time.

There is no equivalent Taylor Swift album and I think she is too careful and risk-averse as a business person to produce one. Simon went to Africa, because endlessly inspired by what he heard there, and made something controversial and new. George Harrison did something similar with his travels in Southeast Asia. Swift's musical moves tend to be carefully planned and attuned to the existing preferences of her current fan base, or to capture an additional corner of the market without offending her current fans. It's a recipe for mediocrity, not innovation. Which is why Folklore and evermore sound kind of like indie albums from lesser known bands, but not TOO much like them, and certainly don't do anything new or exciting musically. It was a good way for Swift to capture some casual fans of bands like the National and Vampire Weekend without pissing off her core fanbase, who are more middle-of-the-road pop fans.

Paul Simon is not a saint nor my personal hero (I think he was kind of a jerk in his relationships and probably self-centered and arrogant), but he made a truly amazing album of music. Taylor Swift could be the perfect human being, but I can't say the same about her musical achievements. She's okay, nothing more, and that is by design.

The irony is it was a Swift detractor that first made the Paul Simon comparison.

I believe they reference Simon to draw a negative comparison. To say "here is an example of truly great lyricis" and then to compare Swift negatively, as an example of mediocre or bad lyrics.

So, actually not ironic.

Perhaps Swift should write a song called "dictionary" and sell a Taylor Swift branded dictionary in her tour merchanise?

+ 1 million, there was just a comment about how the term “gaslighting” was being as misused as “ironic.” Why or why do people use words they don’t know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

I am not the same poster. Believe it or not, there are lots of people who quietly can’t stand Taylor. That being said, being specific and detailed in explaining why you don’t like Taylor Swift’s is not “begging people to agree with you.”

Take your own advice and “move on,” if you are so bothered by comprehensive critiques of her music.

Dp nothing new is going to be said by the haters
So the thread should end. They don't like her and cannot believe that she is wildly sucessfull. They think their opinion matters more than the millions of fans.

We should stop responding because we know the truth and their mild tantrum won't change the facts.

This thread should end “because nothing new is going to be said?”

What’s it to you if the “haters” go back and forth stating the same things over and over? It’s called freedom of expression and last I heard, it was legal to criticize a “wildly sucessfull [sic]” artist.

If reading these comments bothers you, move along and stop responding!

You don't get to tell me how to respond. And you are haters. Why the quotes?

DP. You all seem to hate us for not liking Taylor Swift. Doesn't that make you haters too?

The difference is this:

Person A: "DD just got a new Mary Johnson record for christmas. I'm psyched - I love MJ!"

Person B: "Really? I am not a fan. A few of my friends tried to get me into her but I don't get it."

Person A: "Oh man. LOVE her. So who are your faves?"

And the conversation goes on for a few minutes ending music discussions at some point and veering into something else.

Vs:

Person A: "DD just got a new Mary Johnson record for christmas. I'm psyched - I love MJ!"

Person B: "Really? I'm not a fan. She is ugly, and her eggs are drying up. She can't write or sing. You are going to be embarrassed for liking her in 10 years."

Person A: "Hahahah.....oh wow look at the time...." leaves unhinged conversation

I personally think the personal attacks on Swift's looks or personal choices are lame and I've defended Swift on this thread against that, even though I don't like her at all as a musician or performer.

But even with that, your example doesn't hold up because

(1) this is not a casual conversation between two friends with a pre-existing relationship -- it's a thread about not liking Taylor Swift. So it's more like a group of people who all don't like Taylor Swift got together at a coffee shop and were talking about not liking Taylor Swift, and then "Person B" who is a Taylor Swift megafan, overheard them and comes and sits down at their table and tries to engage them in conversation about Taylor Swift, and then gets angry at them when they reiterate that they don't like her and actually came to this gathering for the express purpose of discussing how they don't like her. And then,

(2) not only refused to leave but told all the people who had made the plans to get together to discuss not liking Taylor Swift that THEY should leave, or at least sit there in silence, because their opinions on Taylor Swift, that they just wanted to share with each other, were hurting Person B's feelings.

I know a ton of people who love Taylor Swift and I never say anything more to them about her than "oh yeah, she's not my thing." Or sometimes I'll say something nice that I genuinely think, like "I've heard her show is really impressive and the costumes look awesome" or "she's a really savvy businesswoman -- I admire her for that." But at the end of the day, I do NOT like her music and don't get why other people do like it so much. It's just a total mystery to me why or how she sells so many albums and inspires such devotion. And I've tried. I've listened to many of her albums all the way through. I even have some artists I am a fan of who have done covers of her songs and I can't get into those either. I just don't like her. And that doesn't make me a jerk or stupid or pathetic or whatever. It just means I don't like Taylor Swift. To quote your very favorite musical artist, you need to calm down.

This is not a private conversarion where one person interrups your conversation. You put it on the internet. What did you expect?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

I am not the same poster. Believe it or not, there are lots of people who quietly can’t stand Taylor. That being said, being specific and detailed in explaining why you don’t like Taylor Swift’s is not “begging people to agree with you.”

Take your own advice and “move on,” if you are so bothered by comprehensive critiques of her music.

Dp nothing new is going to be said by the haters
So the thread should end. They don't like her and cannot believe that she is wildly sucessfull. They think their opinion matters more than the millions of fans.

We should stop responding because we know the truth and their mild tantrum won't change the facts.

This thread should end “because nothing new is going to be said?”

What’s it to you if the “haters” go back and forth stating the same things over and over? It’s called freedom of expression and last I heard, it was legal to criticize a “wildly sucessfull [sic]” artist.

If reading these comments bothers you, move along and stop responding!

You don't get to tell me how to respond. And you are haters. Why the quotes?

Why the quotes? Um, duh because I was quoting what PP wrote.

Here’s the thing, it’s highly HYPOCRITICAL to: 1) tell people that they’re not allowed to discuss their opinions; 2) and to tell them to stop posting comments; 3) and to say a thread should be close a thread because YOU don’t think it has anything new or interesting to say; 4) and then to turn around and get defensive when someone parrots the same sentiment you just made right back at you.

Oh no you called me HYPOCRITICAl. How will I go on? I was actually not talking to you the haters.

Post all you want....and I will respond if I choose

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

I'm 100% with you. Referencing Graceland to DEFEND Swift's music is insane to me. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen phrases of music from that album that are so instantly recognizable and evocative.

And it was released nearly 40 years ago! Also don't discount the fact that Simon was doing something musically interesting with that album, incorporating African rhythms, instruments, and vocalizations with an American approach to songwriting and lyricism in a way no-one had ever heard before and that actually made the album controversial -- Simon has been accused of cultural appropriation many times for that album, though it's an open debate because Simon actually collaborated with and hired many African artists, including the Zulu choir Ladysmith Black Mumbazo (who toured and Simon and appeared with him on SNL in a pretty famous appearance).

I still think you can argue the ethics of what Simon did but it's harder to argue with the results. Whether you credit Simon alone for the brilliance of Graceland or you view it as a successful product of cross-polinization of musical styles and techniques, the truth is that Graceland is a work of genius that stands the test of time.

There is no equivalent Taylor Swift album and I think she is too careful and risk-averse as a business person to produce one. Simon went to Africa, because endlessly inspired by what he heard there, and made something controversial and new. George Harrison did something similar with his travels in Southeast Asia. Swift's musical moves tend to be carefully planned and attuned to the existing preferences of her current fan base, or to capture an additional corner of the market without offending her current fans. It's a recipe for mediocrity, not innovation. Which is why Folklore and evermore sound kind of like indie albums from lesser known bands, but not TOO much like them, and certainly don't do anything new or exciting musically. It was a good way for Swift to capture some casual fans of bands like the National and Vampire Weekend without pissing off her core fanbase, who are more middle-of-the-road pop fans.

Paul Simon is not a saint nor my personal hero (I think he was kind of a jerk in his relationships and probably self-centered and arrogant), but he made a truly amazing album of music. Taylor Swift could be the perfect human being, but I can't say the same about her musical achievements. She's okay, nothing more, and that is by design.

Good lord, calm down. I don’t really know much about Paul Simon or his music. I have heard an and enjoy a few of his songs. I’m not comparing them or saying swift is just as good or iconic or talented. I was just saying that that lyric reminds me of something Taylor Swift would write and pointing out that lyrics don’t have to be super complex to be impactful and beautiful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

I am not the same poster. Believe it or not, there are lots of people who quietly can’t stand Taylor. That being said, being specific and detailed in explaining why you don’t like Taylor Swift’s is not “begging people to agree with you.”

Take your own advice and “move on,” if you are so bothered by comprehensive critiques of her music.

Dp nothing new is going to be said by the haters
So the thread should end. They don't like her and cannot believe that she is wildly sucessfull. They think their opinion matters more than the millions of fans.

We should stop responding because we know the truth and their mild tantrum won't change the facts.

This thread should end “because nothing new is going to be said?”

What’s it to you if the “haters” go back and forth stating the same things over and over? It’s called freedom of expression and last I heard, it was legal to criticize a “wildly sucessfull [sic]” artist.

If reading these comments bothers you, move along and stop responding!

You don't get to tell me how to respond. And you are haters. Why the quotes?

DP. You all seem to hate us for not liking Taylor Swift. Doesn't that make you haters too?

The difference is this:

Person A: "DD just got a new Mary Johnson record for christmas. I'm psyched - I love MJ!"

Person B: "Really? I am not a fan. A few of my friends tried to get me into her but I don't get it."

Person A: "Oh man. LOVE her. So who are your faves?"

And the conversation goes on for a few minutes ending music discussions at some point and veering into something else.

Vs:

Person A: "DD just got a new Mary Johnson record for christmas. I'm psyched - I love MJ!"

Person B: "Really? I'm not a fan. She is ugly, and her eggs are drying up. She can't write or sing. You are going to be embarrassed for liking her in 10 years."

Person A: "Hahahah.....oh wow look at the time...." leaves unhinged conversation

I personally think the personal attacks on Swift's looks or personal choices are lame and I've defended Swift on this thread against that, even though I don't like her at all as a musician or performer.

But even with that, your example doesn't hold up because

(1) this is not a casual conversation between two friends with a pre-existing relationship -- it's a thread about not liking Taylor Swift. So it's more like a group of people who all don't like Taylor Swift got together at a coffee shop and were talking about not liking Taylor Swift, and then "Person B" who is a Taylor Swift megafan, overheard them and comes and sits down at their table and tries to engage them in conversation about Taylor Swift, and then gets angry at them when they reiterate that they don't like her and actually came to this gathering for the express purpose of discussing how they don't like her. And then,

(2) not only refused to leave but told all the people who had made the plans to get together to discuss not liking Taylor Swift that THEY should leave, or at least sit there in silence, because their opinions on Taylor Swift, that they just wanted to share with each other, were hurting Person B's feelings.

I know a ton of people who love Taylor Swift and I never say anything more to them about her than "oh yeah, she's not my thing." Or sometimes I'll say something nice that I genuinely think, like "I've heard her show is really impressive and the costumes look awesome" or "she's a really savvy businesswoman -- I admire her for that." But at the end of the day, I do NOT like her music and don't get why other people do like it so much. It's just a total mystery to me why or how she sells so many albums and inspires such devotion. And I've tried. I've listened to many of her albums all the way through. I even have some artists I am a fan of who have done covers of her songs and I can't get into those either. I just don't like her. And that doesn't make me a jerk or stupid or pathetic or whatever. It just means I don't like Taylor Swift. To quote your very favorite musical artist, you need to calm down.

This is not a private conversarion where one person interrups your conversation. You put it on the internet. What did you expect?

I expected nothing. But a conversation in a coffee shop isn't private either. Swift fans are in this thread saying they feel attacked. But... why? It would be very easy to read the title of the thread, conclude they disagree and don't want to read a bunch of criticism of Taylor Swift, and move on. I don't understand the persistent desire to come to a thread that is clearly created for the purpose of criticizing Swift, engage in argument, and then get mad when people continue to disagree. I'm not surprised that Swift fans are angered by this thread -- anyone who knows anything about the Swifties could predict this. But it doesn't make it reasonable or rational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

I'm 100% with you. Referencing Graceland to DEFEND Swift's music is insane to me. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen phrases of music from that album that are so instantly recognizable and evocative.

And it was released nearly 40 years ago! Also don't discount the fact that Simon was doing something musically interesting with that album, incorporating African rhythms, instruments, and vocalizations with an American approach to songwriting and lyricism in a way no-one had ever heard before and that actually made the album controversial -- Simon has been accused of cultural appropriation many times for that album, though it's an open debate because Simon actually collaborated with and hired many African artists, including the Zulu choir Ladysmith Black Mumbazo (who toured and Simon and appeared with him on SNL in a pretty famous appearance).

I still think you can argue the ethics of what Simon did but it's harder to argue with the results. Whether you credit Simon alone for the brilliance of Graceland or you view it as a successful product of cross-polinization of musical styles and techniques, the truth is that Graceland is a work of genius that stands the test of time.

There is no equivalent Taylor Swift album and I think she is too careful and risk-averse as a business person to produce one. Simon went to Africa, because endlessly inspired by what he heard there, and made something controversial and new. George Harrison did something similar with his travels in Southeast Asia. Swift's musical moves tend to be carefully planned and attuned to the existing preferences of her current fan base, or to capture an additional corner of the market without offending her current fans. It's a recipe for mediocrity, not innovation. Which is why Folklore and evermore sound kind of like indie albums from lesser known bands, but not TOO much like them, and certainly don't do anything new or exciting musically. It was a good way for Swift to capture some casual fans of bands like the National and Vampire Weekend without pissing off her core fanbase, who are more middle-of-the-road pop fans.

Paul Simon is not a saint nor my personal hero (I think he was kind of a jerk in his relationships and probably self-centered and arrogant), but he made a truly amazing album of music. Taylor Swift could be the perfect human being, but I can't say the same about her musical achievements. She's okay, nothing more, and that is by design.

Good lord, calm down. I don’t really know much about Paul Simon or his music. I have heard an and enjoy a few of his songs. I’m not comparing them or saying swift is just as good or iconic or talented. I was just saying that that lyric reminds me of something Taylor Swift would write and pointing out that lyrics don’t have to be super complex to be impactful and beautiful.

I love "calm down" to a perfectly come and well-argued post.

Of course you don't know much about Paul Simon or his music. This is entirely the point. The people who claim Taylor Swift is great often don't have a lot of exposure to other music. I remember when she released her albums that sound kind of "indie-ish" a lot of the Swift fans I know were like "this is your kind of music!" But it's not. It's a weak imitation. I'm sorry. She's not an innovator.

I come back to the thread title: her music isn't very good. It's not. I wish it was! If someone as famous and popular as Taylor Swift was churning out album after album of truly great music, I'd be thrilled because I love music. But she's not. Like many prolific pop stars before her, she's cranking out mediocrity in great volume because it sells. Yay? This is why I can't celebrate her and bristle at people saying she's so talented. Hardworking? No question. Smart and canny about her business? Yes and yes. But talented? Middling at best.

I guess she's a good example of what a middling talent can accomplish with grit, determination, and a lot of financial backing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

I am not the same poster. Believe it or not, there are lots of people who quietly can’t stand Taylor. That being said, being specific and detailed in explaining why you don’t like Taylor Swift’s is not “begging people to agree with you.”

Take your own advice and “move on,” if you are so bothered by comprehensive critiques of her music.

Dp nothing new is going to be said by the haters
So the thread should end. They don't like her and cannot believe that she is wildly sucessfull. They think their opinion matters more than the millions of fans.

We should stop responding because we know the truth and their mild tantrum won't change the facts.

This thread should end “because nothing new is going to be said?”

What’s it to you if the “haters” go back and forth stating the same things over and over? It’s called freedom of expression and last I heard, it was legal to criticize a “wildly sucessfull [sic]” artist.

If reading these comments bothers you, move along and stop responding!

You don't get to tell me how to respond. And you are haters. Why the quotes?

DP. You all seem to hate us for not liking Taylor Swift. Doesn't that make you haters too?

The difference is this:

Person A: "DD just got a new Mary Johnson record for christmas. I'm psyched - I love MJ!"

Person B: "Really? I am not a fan. A few of my friends tried to get me into her but I don't get it."

Person A: "Oh man. LOVE her. So who are your faves?"

And the conversation goes on for a few minutes ending music discussions at some point and veering into something else.

Vs:

Person A: "DD just got a new Mary Johnson record for christmas. I'm psyched - I love MJ!"

Person B: "Really? I'm not a fan. She is ugly, and her eggs are drying up. She can't write or sing. You are going to be embarrassed for liking her in 10 years."

Person A: "Hahahah.....oh wow look at the time...." leaves unhinged conversation

I personally think the personal attacks on Swift's looks or personal choices are lame and I've defended Swift on this thread against that, even though I don't like her at all as a musician or performer.

But even with that, your example doesn't hold up because

(1) this is not a casual conversation between two friends with a pre-existing relationship -- it's a thread about not liking Taylor Swift. So it's more like a group of people who all don't like Taylor Swift got together at a coffee shop and were talking about not liking Taylor Swift, and then "Person B" who is a Taylor Swift megafan, overheard them and comes and sits down at their table and tries to engage them in conversation about Taylor Swift, and then gets angry at them when they reiterate that they don't like her and actually came to this gathering for the express purpose of discussing how they don't like her. And then,

(2) not only refused to leave but told all the people who had made the plans to get together to discuss not liking Taylor Swift that THEY should leave, or at least sit there in silence, because their opinions on Taylor Swift, that they just wanted to share with each other, were hurting Person B's feelings.

I know a ton of people who love Taylor Swift and I never say anything more to them about her than "oh yeah, she's not my thing." Or sometimes I'll say something nice that I genuinely think, like "I've heard her show is really impressive and the costumes look awesome" or "she's a really savvy businesswoman -- I admire her for that." But at the end of the day, I do NOT like her music and don't get why other people do like it so much. It's just a total mystery to me why or how she sells so many albums and inspires such devotion. And I've tried. I've listened to many of her albums all the way through. I even have some artists I am a fan of who have done covers of her songs and I can't get into those either. I just don't like her. And that doesn't make me a jerk or stupid or pathetic or whatever. It just means I don't like Taylor Swift. To quote your very favorite musical artist, you need to calm down.

This is not a private conversarion where one person interrups your conversation. You put it on the internet. What did you expect?

I expected nothing. But a conversation in a coffee shop isn't private either. Swift fans are in this thread saying they feel attacked. But... why? It would be very easy to read the title of the thread, conclude they disagree and don't want to read a bunch of criticism of Taylor Swift, and move on. I don't understand the persistent desire to come to a thread that is clearly created for the purpose of criticizing Swift, engage in argument, and then get mad when people continue to disagree. I'm not surprised that Swift fans are angered by this thread -- anyone who knows anything about the Swifties could predict this. But it doesn't make it reasonable or rational.

Really? There is no difference between a private conversation in a coffee shop and opening up a discussion on the internet? I highly doubt anyone would interject if they over heard you trash talking Taylor Swift in a coffee shop. And the ones who are mad are not the defenders. It is the op and those who hate her and her music. That's why it was started, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

I am not the same poster. Believe it or not, there are lots of people who quietly can’t stand Taylor. That being said, being specific and detailed in explaining why you don’t like Taylor Swift’s is not “begging people to agree with you.”

Take your own advice and “move on,” if you are so bothered by comprehensive critiques of her music.

Dp nothing new is going to be said by the haters
So the thread should end. They don't like her and cannot believe that she is wildly sucessfull. They think their opinion matters more than the millions of fans.

We should stop responding because we know the truth and their mild tantrum won't change the facts.

This thread should end “because nothing new is going to be said?”

What’s it to you if the “haters” go back and forth stating the same things over and over? It’s called freedom of expression and last I heard, it was legal to criticize a “wildly sucessfull [sic]” artist.

If reading these comments bothers you, move along and stop responding!

You don't get to tell me how to respond. And you are haters. Why the quotes?

Why the quotes? Um, duh because I was quoting what PP wrote.

Here’s the thing, it’s highly HYPOCRITICAL to: 1) tell people that they’re not allowed to discuss their opinions; 2) and to tell them to stop posting comments; 3) and to say a thread should be close a thread because YOU don’t think it has anything new or interesting to say; 4) and then to turn around and get defensive when someone parrots the same sentiment you just made right back at you.

Oh no you called me HYPOCRITICAl. How will I go on? I was actually not talking to you the haters.

Post all you want....and I will respond if I choose

You don’t make any sense at all. You can’t write coherently. Go ahead and respond away, whenever you feel like it. Your word salad adds nothing to this discussion, but you go, girl!

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Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

I am not the same poster. Believe it or not, there are lots of people who quietly can’t stand Taylor. That being said, being specific and detailed in explaining why you don’t like Taylor Swift’s is not “begging people to agree with you.”

Take your own advice and “move on,” if you are so bothered by comprehensive critiques of her music.

Dp nothing new is going to be said by the haters
So the thread should end. They don't like her and cannot believe that she is wildly sucessfull. They think their opinion matters more than the millions of fans.

We should stop responding because we know the truth and their mild tantrum won't change the facts.

This thread should end “because nothing new is going to be said?”

What’s it to you if the “haters” go back and forth stating the same things over and over? It’s called freedom of expression and last I heard, it was legal to criticize a “wildly sucessfull [sic]” artist.

If reading these comments bothers you, move along and stop responding!

You don't get to tell me how to respond. And you are haters. Why the quotes?

Why the quotes? Um, duh because I was quoting what PP wrote.

Here’s the thing, it’s highly HYPOCRITICAL to: 1) tell people that they’re not allowed to discuss their opinions; 2) and to tell them to stop posting comments; 3) and to say a thread should be close a thread because YOU don’t think it has anything new or interesting to say; 4) and then to turn around and get defensive when someone parrots the same sentiment you just made right back at you.

Oh no you called me HYPOCRITICAl. How will I go on? I was actually not talking to you the haters.

Post all you want....and I will respond if I choose

You don’t make any sense at all. You can’t write coherently. Go ahead and respond away, whenever you feel like it. Your word salad adds nothing to this discussion, but you go, girl!

hmmm what an insult...I am so hurt boo hoo