Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn't even very good)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Where has anyone said you are "wrong" for being a fan of someone? The point is just that some of us are not fans.

If you are looking for somewhere where your Taylor Swift fandom will be rewarded and celebrated, a quick Google search revealed the following:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TaylorSwift/
https://newtaylorconnect.freeforums.net/forum
https://taylor.boards.net

There is no shortage of Taylor Swift echo chambers out there. Go forth! Enjoy!

Exactly, there’s no shortage of places to praise Taylor on the internet. This unprecedented and persistent attempt to quiet any adverse opinion on a pop star is making me think that some of these posters are actually lowly interns for Taylor’s PR team.

Since when has an OP’s desire for an echo chamber ever been respected on DCUM? Taylor fan or even Taylor neutral threads descend into hate very, very quickly. Every time. Same for people like Megan Markel. But when it’s the other way around, it’s not ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

Telling someone they have no musical taste may be obnoxious and condescending, but it’s not gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a severe form of abuse where the perpetrator physically and repeatedly manipulates reality to make the victim psychologically, physically and emotionally dependent on the perpetrator. An example would be an abuser taking the victim’s purse, which she left on a chair and hiding it in a closet. When the victim goes to get her purse, she is confused as to why it is not there and questions her memory and sanity when it’s found in the closet.


Since you’re having so much difficulty understanding the definition of gaslighting, I’ve cut and pasted a link to the Merriam Webster definition for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting


Also, it’s really hard not to be condescending when you’re dealing with someone who throws out serious allegations of abuse just because people question her musical tastes. That’s so offensive to real victims of gaslighting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

DP. You are talking in circles. First you said it was gaslighting to tell people they are wrong for being a fan of Swift. But that's not gaslighting. It's a difference of opinion. It's no different than you telling me I'm wrong for disliking Swift. It's just opinions.

And sure, people have said that people will regret being a fan (I don't think people will regret it, necessarily, but I think most people will wonder what it was they loved about her 20 years from now because I do not think her music will hold up). I do think that people who love Swift so much lack musical taste. I don't know how to couch that any other way. She's just so mediocre. Her music is not innovative or interesting. It's... okay. I get the people who maybe are casual fans and like a few of her songs, or find the spectacle of her shows engaging or whatever. I don't think her music merits the amount of attention and adulation she gets and there are so many other contemporary artists doing stuff that is more engaging and creative that I do question the musical taste of people who place Swift on a pedestal above them. She's just a pop start, and she doesn't even have one of those everlasting pop hits like Britney or Madonna or other musicians have had. I was never a Britney die-hard fan, but when I hear the opening notes to Hit Me Baby... or Toxic, I involuntarily sing along and enjoy them. Same with Like a Virgin or Vogue. I can't think of a single Taylor song like this. I guess Shake it off or Bad Blood, but these songs don't give me that same "oh yeah, I love this song" feeling. The feel no different to me than songs by Katy Perry or Ed Sheeran or others who I also think of as serviceable but not really lasting pop talents.

Anyway, I'm not trying to manipulate your reality. I just disagree with you. For whatever reason, this makes you super angry at me and call me names. I find that dynamic so strange and it makes me like Swift even less. Why are her fans like this? I have so many musicians I really love and I can't imagine being this mad about the idea that someone doesn't like them. Yes, even if someone started a thread online titled something like "David Bowie/Jenny Lewis/Vampire Weekend/Jack White/Sylvan Esso is awful (and their music isn't even very good)." That would make me laugh. And while some of those musicians are unimpeachable, I've definitely read take downs of, say, Vampire Weekend and was like "huh, disagree" and then moved on with my life. I've never felt the need to lay myself down on train tracks to defend them. They are a successful band, getting criticism is part of the gig. And the same is true of Taylor Swift.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Where has anyone said you are "wrong" for being a fan of someone? The point is just that some of us are not fans.

If you are looking for somewhere where your Taylor Swift fandom will be rewarded and celebrated, a quick Google search revealed the following:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TaylorSwift/
https://newtaylorconnect.freeforums.net/forum
https://taylor.boards.net

There is no shortage of Taylor Swift echo chambers out there. Go forth! Enjoy!

Exactly, there’s no shortage of places to praise Taylor on the internet. This unprecedented and persistent attempt to quiet any adverse opinion on a pop star is making me think that some of these posters are actually lowly interns for Taylor’s PR team.

Since when has an OP’s desire for an echo chamber ever been respected on DCUM? Taylor fan or even Taylor neutral threads descend into hate very, very quickly. Every time. Same for people like Megan Markel. But when it’s the other way around, it’s not ok.

Isn't this thread doing a service then? People who don't like Swift can come here and talk about it, and people who love her can go post on one of the many threads that are about discussing her music, love life, obtaining tour tickets, her movie, etc. If anything, the fact that people often post on those other threads about disliking her indicates that a thread where people could express that opinion freely was needed. And here it is! But the TS fans came here to squash it. Why? Just let it flourish, and then when people post negative things in other threads, you can direct them here as necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

DP. You are talking in circles. First you said it was gaslighting to tell people they are wrong for being a fan of Swift. But that's not gaslighting. It's a difference of opinion. It's no different than you telling me I'm wrong for disliking Swift. It's just opinions.

And sure, people have said that people will regret being a fan (I don't think people will regret it, necessarily, but I think most people will wonder what it was they loved about her 20 years from now because I do not think her music will hold up). I do think that people who love Swift so much lack musical taste. I don't know how to couch that any other way. She's just so mediocre. Her music is not innovative or interesting. It's... okay. I get the people who maybe are casual fans and like a few of her songs, or find the spectacle of her shows engaging or whatever. I don't think her music merits the amount of attention and adulation she gets and there are so many other contemporary artists doing stuff that is more engaging and creative that I do question the musical taste of people who place Swift on a pedestal above them. She's just a pop start, and she doesn't even have one of those everlasting pop hits like Britney or Madonna or other musicians have had. I was never a Britney die-hard fan, but when I hear the opening notes to Hit Me Baby... or Toxic, I involuntarily sing along and enjoy them. Same with Like a Virgin or Vogue. I can't think of a single Taylor song like this. I guess Shake it off or Bad Blood, but these songs don't give me that same "oh yeah, I love this song" feeling. The feel no different to me than songs by Katy Perry or Ed Sheeran or others who I also think of as serviceable but not really lasting pop talents.

Anyway, I'm not trying to manipulate your reality. I just disagree with you. For whatever reason, this makes you super angry at me and call me names. I find that dynamic so strange and it makes me like Swift even less. Why are her fans like this? I have so many musicians I really love and I can't imagine being this mad about the idea that someone doesn't like them. Yes, even if someone started a thread online titled something like "David Bowie/Jenny Lewis/Vampire Weekend/Jack White/Sylvan Esso is awful (and their music isn't even very good)." That would make me laugh. And while some of those musicians are unimpeachable, I've definitely read take downs of, say, Vampire Weekend and was like "huh, disagree" and then moved on with my life. I've never felt the need to lay myself down on train tracks to defend them. They are a successful band, getting criticism is part of the gig. And the same is true of Taylor Swift.

I think you’re wrong about people regretting it is because if you take something like the song holiday or like a Prayer by Madonna, me and my high school gen X friends absolutely still adore these songs to this day, and if you get us in a room together these songs are playing you better watch out.

Are they the best lyrics ever? Are you the greatest pop songs ever? of course not but we have really fun memories from high school and before of rocking out to Madonna. I think my DDs are going to have similar experiences looking back in 20 years. How much fun they had the concerts, movies, and just bonding over her music, so I think they will stand the test of time in that way.

But I don’t get the gaslighting argument. It is blatant gaslighting to tell someone they are wrong for liking the music of Taylor Swift, and that we only like her because we are being manipulated by her PR team. We don’t actually like her music or lyrics. That is blatantly telling someone else a different reality and that is gaslighting and I’m tired of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Where has anyone said you are "wrong" for being a fan of someone? The point is just that some of us are not fans.

If you are looking for somewhere where your Taylor Swift fandom will be rewarded and celebrated, a quick Google search revealed the following:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TaylorSwift/
https://newtaylorconnect.freeforums.net/forum
https://taylor.boards.net

There is no shortage of Taylor Swift echo chambers out there. Go forth! Enjoy!

Exactly, there’s no shortage of places to praise Taylor on the internet. This unprecedented and persistent attempt to quiet any adverse opinion on a pop star is making me think that some of these posters are actually lowly interns for Taylor’s PR team.

Since when has an OP’s desire for an echo chamber ever been respected on DCUM? Taylor fan or even Taylor neutral threads descend into hate very, very quickly. Every time. Same for people like Megan Markel. But when it’s the other way around, it’s not ok.

Isn't this thread doing a service then? People who don't like Swift can come here and talk about it, and people who love her can go post on one of the many threads that are about discussing her music, love life, obtaining tour tickets, her movie, etc. If anything, the fact that people often post on those other threads about disliking her indicates that a thread where people could express that opinion freely was needed. And here it is! But the TS fans came here to squash it. Why? Just let it flourish, and then when people post negative things in other threads, you can direct them here as necessary.

Good luck with that plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

DP. You are talking in circles. First you said it was gaslighting to tell people they are wrong for being a fan of Swift. But that's not gaslighting. It's a difference of opinion. It's no different than you telling me I'm wrong for disliking Swift. It's just opinions.

And sure, people have said that people will regret being a fan (I don't think people will regret it, necessarily, but I think most people will wonder what it was they loved about her 20 years from now because I do not think her music will hold up). I do think that people who love Swift so much lack musical taste. I don't know how to couch that any other way. She's just so mediocre. Her music is not innovative or interesting. It's... okay. I get the people who maybe are casual fans and like a few of her songs, or find the spectacle of her shows engaging or whatever. I don't think her music merits the amount of attention and adulation she gets and there are so many other contemporary artists doing stuff that is more engaging and creative that I do question the musical taste of people who place Swift on a pedestal above them. She's just a pop start, and she doesn't even have one of those everlasting pop hits like Britney or Madonna or other musicians have had. I was never a Britney die-hard fan, but when I hear the opening notes to Hit Me Baby... or Toxic, I involuntarily sing along and enjoy them. Same with Like a Virgin or Vogue. I can't think of a single Taylor song like this. I guess Shake it off or Bad Blood, but these songs don't give me that same "oh yeah, I love this song" feeling. The feel no different to me than songs by Katy Perry or Ed Sheeran or others who I also think of as serviceable but not really lasting pop talents.

Anyway, I'm not trying to manipulate your reality. I just disagree with you. For whatever reason, this makes you super angry at me and call me names. I find that dynamic so strange and it makes me like Swift even less. Why are her fans like this? I have so many musicians I really love and I can't imagine being this mad about the idea that someone doesn't like them. Yes, even if someone started a thread online titled something like "David Bowie/Jenny Lewis/Vampire Weekend/Jack White/Sylvan Esso is awful (and their music isn't even very good)." That would make me laugh. And while some of those musicians are unimpeachable, I've definitely read take downs of, say, Vampire Weekend and was like "huh, disagree" and then moved on with my life. I've never felt the need to lay myself down on train tracks to defend them. They are a successful band, getting criticism is part of the gig. And the same is true of Taylor Swift.

I think you’re wrong about people regretting it is because if you take something like the song holiday or like a Prayer by Madonna, me and my high school gen X friends absolutely still adore these songs to this day, and if you get us in a room together these songs are playing you better watch out.

Are they the best lyrics ever? Are you the greatest pop songs ever? of course not but we have really fun memories from high school and before of rocking out to Madonna. I think my DDs are going to have similar experiences looking back in 20 years. How much fun they had the concerts, movies, and just bonding over her music, so I think they will stand the test of time in that way.

But I don’t get the gaslighting argument. It is blatant gaslighting to tell someone they are wrong for liking the music of Taylor Swift, and that we only like her because we are being manipulated by her PR team. We don’t actually like her music or lyrics. That is blatantly telling someone else a different reality and that is gaslighting and I’m tired of it.

You don’t get the gaslighting argument because the term is grossly and incorrectly misused. You are using it incorrectly. It’s like the “ironic” of the 2020s.

[Anonymous]

The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

Telling someone they have no musical taste may be obnoxious and condescending, but it’s not gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a severe form of abuse where the perpetrator physically and repeatedly manipulates reality to make the victim psychologically, physically and emotionally dependent on the perpetrator. An example would be an abuser taking the victim’s purse, which she left on a chair and hiding it in a closet. When the victim goes to get her purse, she is confused as to why it is not there and questions her memory and sanity when it’s found in the closet.


Since you’re having so much difficulty understanding the definition of gaslighting, I’ve cut and pasted a link to the Merriam Webster definition for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting


Also, it’s really hard not to be condescending when you’re dealing with someone who throws out serious allegations of abuse just because people question her musical tastes. That’s so offensive to real victims of gaslighting.

For the last time, I am not saying telling people they have bad taste in music is gaslighting. I'm saying there are posters on this thread saying that people will one day wake up to a different reality, where they regret or bemoan their enjoyment of someone's music. It is insane to say that.

They are saying, what you think you are experiencing you are not experiencing.

That.is.gaslighting. My god.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

Telling someone they have no musical taste may be obnoxious and condescending, but it’s not gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a severe form of abuse where the perpetrator physically and repeatedly manipulates reality to make the victim psychologically, physically and emotionally dependent on the perpetrator. An example would be an abuser taking the victim’s purse, which she left on a chair and hiding it in a closet. When the victim goes to get her purse, she is confused as to why it is not there and questions her memory and sanity when it’s found in the closet.


Since you’re having so much difficulty understanding the definition of gaslighting, I’ve cut and pasted a link to the Merriam Webster definition for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting


Also, it’s really hard not to be condescending when you’re dealing with someone who throws out serious allegations of abuse just because people question her musical tastes. That’s so offensive to real victims of gaslighting.

For the last time, I am not saying telling people they have bad taste in music is gaslighting. I'm saying there are posters on this thread saying that people will one day wake up to a different reality, where they regret or bemoan their enjoyment of someone's music. It is insane to say that.

They are saying, what you think you are experiencing you are not experiencing.

That.is.gaslighting. My god.

You are misreading. No one has said people will "regret" liking Taylor Swift. Some of us think that SOME Taylor Swift fans will be embarrassed by their fandom.

I don't think people will regret liking music they like, and I have no doubt that when Swift fans hear their favorite Swift songs many years from now, they will still have nostalgic love for them.

What I think people will be embarrassed by is stuff like: (1) purchasing a branded cardigan for $70, (2) spending thousands of dollars to go see the Eras tour multiple times instead of, say, saving up for a down payment on a house, (3) angrily defending some of Swift's worst music online, (4) claiming they are being "gaslit" by people who don't think Swift's music is very good or who argue that her popularity might have more to do with her marketing prowess than the inherent value of her music.

And I stand by it. I'm not gaslighting you or trying to trick you, I just really believe this. It's never gaslighting if the person truly believes what they are saying, and I do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

Telling someone they have no musical taste may be obnoxious and condescending, but it’s not gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a severe form of abuse where the perpetrator physically and repeatedly manipulates reality to make the victim psychologically, physically and emotionally dependent on the perpetrator. An example would be an abuser taking the victim’s purse, which she left on a chair and hiding it in a closet. When the victim goes to get her purse, she is confused as to why it is not there and questions her memory and sanity when it’s found in the closet.


Since you’re having so much difficulty understanding the definition of gaslighting, I’ve cut and pasted a link to the Merriam Webster definition for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting


Also, it’s really hard not to be condescending when you’re dealing with someone who throws out serious allegations of abuse just because people question her musical tastes. That’s so offensive to real victims of gaslighting.

For the last time, I am not saying telling people they have bad taste in music is gaslighting. I'm saying there are posters on this thread saying that people will one day wake up to a different reality, where they regret or bemoan their enjoyment of someone's music. It is insane to say that.

They are saying, what you think you are experiencing you are not experiencing.

That.is.gaslighting. My god.

OMG! That.is.NOT.gaslighting! In order for an act to qualify as gaslighting by its proper definition, the person or persons doing it, must gain something, usually financial, from the victim they are gaslighting. What are any of these posters gaining out of those they are allegedly gaslighting? Nothing. Therefore, this is not gaslighting, no matter how many times you insist it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing “blank space” and “America” by Paul simon?
That’s ridiculous and sad. Someone isn’t really arguing in good faith when they come up with absurd analogies.
Blank Space is a catchy pop tune. It’s got a hook ( which America does not). It’s meant for top 40 radio play. “America” is one of my favorite songs but get real. This is a silly comparison. And the sentiments aren’t rooted in anything similar.
Stop trying so hard.

I’m PP who made the comparison. Feel free to twist it around and take it out of context, but I was specifically asked who I do consider a good lyricist. Why do I have to pick a bad one to boost Taylor’s bland and reductive lyrics?

You want good pop lyrics? Listen to Regina Spektor. Do I have to go through everyone who is better than Taylor at writing lyrics? That would take up all year. Or do you want me to compare Taylor to the Spice Girls, so that she can sound good?

Do we have to lower musical standards to prop Taylor up? Or can’t her fans admit, she’s not a very good lyricist, even if her music makes you feel good. I love Abba, but I don’t go around saying Mama Mia has the best lyrics ever.

I am not quite sure you were the same poster, who was just looking for a place event, if if so, you are brutally contradicting yourself. Venting is different than practically begging Taylor Swift and to admit “yes her lyrics are not that good thank you for helping me see the light” lol. Do you not see why people are going to react to that. Sorry, but you’re probably not going get a lot of fans on this thread giving you that reaction. if that is what you need to be able to move on, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s one thing to vent or complain, it’s another thing which a lot of posters are doing to practically beg people to agree with them. it’s super annoying to be told that you are the arbiter of musical taste and everybody else is wrong. It’s also just really weird.

+1
I don't even care who we're arguing about - this is the issue with that nasty human being. Such a blowhard.

No one is saying you can’t like Taylor, we were saying we don’t like her on a thread titled to express that sentiment. And then fans came on talking about how amazing she is. When her music was critiqued in a more detailed manner, the people issuing those criticisms are suddenly “blowhards” and “arbiters of musical taste.” No, they are voicing their opinions. Why can’t they?

.

You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.

When I was a teenager, when I'd disagree with my dad, who was and is a physically and emotionally abusive narcissist, he'd do this thing when he'd lost an argument where he'd get really calm and condescending.

"Of course, you can dress however you'd like, dear. You'll look like a pathetic little whore, but you can of course decide what clothes to put on your body."

"You are of course entitled to your opinion. You sound like an ignorant, idiot bleeding heart liberal, but it's a free country."

I wonder why I thought of that just now.

comparing an anon poster writing an offhand one line comment to another anon poster....is NOT the same as the parent emotionally abusing a teen. Like at all. That said, your dad sucks and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

The PP's comment ("You can. 100%. It’s just sad as hell and a little pathetic, but you absolutely can.") is an abusive technique. Not saying that PP is an abuser, at all. But this is a common rhetorical tool that is abusive, where you mask insults and ad hominem ("sad as hell" and "pathetic") under a veneer of not caring at all, or being detached and reasonable. The PP actually cares deeply about the subject or they wouldn't be posting. But rather than saying "this is important to me and here are the reasons why I think you are wrong," she is pretending not to care at all but then tossing very rude and hurtful comments in as facts.

People who do this instinctually, even in a silly conversation about Taylor Swift, should be aware it's an abusive tactic. If you want to engage with people on an issue, do so directly and respectfully. Pretending not to care one way or another while issuing low-blow attacks is not the way.

You know what is also an abusive technique? Gaslighting. So quit telling people they are wrong for being a fan of someone.

Gaslighting? I don’t think you understand what that term means. It means manipulating someone into questioning his or her sanity. It does not mean telling someone that their preference for a celebrity is wrong.

That being said, no one in this thread has told anyone that they are wrong for being a fan. The only thing posters are doing on a thread titled “Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn’t very good),” is discussing the reasons they think she’s a mediocre singer, lyricist and performer.

Voicing their opinions on her abilities is not gaslighting.

They absolutely have. I can point you about 100 comments on this thread of people saying they’re going to regret being a fan, they’re wrong, and have no musical taste,. You telling me that is not the case is completely manipulating reality which is the very definition of gaslighting. you’re also super condescending. I know what the definition of gaslighting is.

Telling someone they have no musical taste may be obnoxious and condescending, but it’s not gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a severe form of abuse where the perpetrator physically and repeatedly manipulates reality to make the victim psychologically, physically and emotionally dependent on the perpetrator. An example would be an abuser taking the victim’s purse, which she left on a chair and hiding it in a closet. When the victim goes to get her purse, she is confused as to why it is not there and questions her memory and sanity when it’s found in the closet.


Since you’re having so much difficulty understanding the definition of gaslighting, I’ve cut and pasted a link to the Merriam Webster definition for you:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting


Also, it’s really hard not to be condescending when you’re dealing with someone who throws out serious allegations of abuse just because people question her musical tastes. That’s so offensive to real victims of gaslighting.

For the last time, I am not saying telling people they have bad taste in music is gaslighting. I'm saying there are posters on this thread saying that people will one day wake up to a different reality, where they regret or bemoan their enjoyment of someone's music. It is insane to say that.

They are saying, what you think you are experiencing you are not experiencing.

That.is.gaslighting. My god.

OMG! That.is.NOT.gaslighting! In order for an act to qualify as gaslighting by its proper definition, the person or persons doing it, must gain something, usually financial, from the victim they are gaslighting. What are any of these posters gaining out of those they are allegedly gaslighting? Nothing. Therefore, this is not gaslighting, no matter how many times you insist it is.

I don't know what they are gaining from it, but they are gaining something. Fleeting feelings of superiority I assume.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share