Thrivers (book), raising kids in a pressure cooker area

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents are so involved with their kids nowadays, it’s insane. My mom had no idea who my friends were and frankly, didn’t care. She would get home from work and make dinner while smoking a cigarette and gossiping on the phone with my aunt. I played sports but didn’t do anything competitively until I was in middle school and then I had to pick one sport because we couldn’t afford more than that. The only books we had in the house were by Danielle Steel. My parents and I lived on different planets, and that was just fine. I went to college, I have a good job, and my parents and I have a good relationship. Now there’s all this pressure. People taking constant photos of their kids, scheduling their days and packing them full of classes.There’s also fear permeating everything. The kids can’t go outside by themselves, parents are calling teachers to check in on schoolwork, nobody can afford to make mistakes. No wonder these kids are so anxious.

This. Independence and responsibility was forced on us at a young age. High school was considered adulthood. And when you got your license, home pretty much became a place to sleep between school, work, sports, other extra-curriculars, and partying. No one woke us up or told us what time to go to bed. The only thing we got was “don’t f-up”.

So what's stopping you from raising your kids this way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents are so involved with their kids nowadays, it’s insane. My mom had no idea who my friends were and frankly, didn’t care. She would get home from work and make dinner while smoking a cigarette and gossiping on the phone with my aunt. I played sports but didn’t do anything competitively until I was in middle school and then I had to pick one sport because we couldn’t afford more than that. The only books we had in the house were by Danielle Steel. My parents and I lived on different planets, and that was just fine. I went to college, I have a good job, and my parents and I have a good relationship. Now there’s all this pressure. People taking constant photos of their kids, scheduling their days and packing them full of classes.There’s also fear permeating everything. The kids can’t go outside by themselves, parents are calling teachers to check in on schoolwork, nobody can afford to make mistakes. No wonder these kids are so anxious.

It’s a different world. In some ways, our kids have it better. At the same time, I grieve for the fact that they won’t have as carefree a childhood.

NP. How do our kids have it better?

Well there's no doubt that there are fewer injury related deaths in children compared with earlier time periods. Helicopter parenting has its disadvantages but we do have better safety (drowning, falls, poisoning, cars) etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To what extent do you think that laid back parents can raise laid back kids in this regard, even when surrounded by pressure-cooker families? DH and I are pretty non-competitive when it comes to work and school. We both have jobs that are intellectually stimulating, we read a lot, have academic and social interests, but couldn't care less if our kids are at the top of their class/make the competitive sports team/ etc. I like to think we can raise kids who don't feel the need to keep up with their peers in some of the ways being discussed here, but they're still young and so I don't know if we're being totally naive.

I think you can but you have to be intentional about it, recognize that - especially once in middle and high school -- they will be getting all these competition messages from school/peers so you need to talk about that and reinforce that it is ok to go against the flow.

DH and I are both pretty laid back people but I think could have easily fallen into the go-go ECs mindset prevalent in the area but our kids are very strong willed and from an early age insisted on doing things their way.

DD was the only little girl who didn't do soccer or t-ball or dance or any of the standard little-kid activities. She went to two dance classes at 3 years old and then refused to go again. She just wanted to play outside or do art so we followed her interests, went hiking a lot, signed her up for art classes. Eventually she asked to do a sport and did fencing for a while but again no interest in doing it at an intense level, much to her coach's disappointment. As a teen she's still mainly interested in hiking, nature-related volunteer work, and art. But, she doesn't want to do art at school where it will become an obligation rather than a relaxing hobby.

She was always a top student and we never pushed, were fine with her approach to ECs, are happy for her to go to any college that fits her interests and ambitions (which will not be T20-type schools). Still, she had a massive melt down early this year about the pressure to get into a top school, to get all As in a bunch of AP classes, worrying that she's falling behind because she's getting a B in a 10th grade AP class. I realized that while we are not putting that pressure on her it is endemic in her high school. So we had to talk about the ridiculous expectations people put on kids, that you can get into a good college without doing all this stuff and that even those who practically kill themselves doing all of it are still a long shot for those tippy-top ranked schools. We encouraged her to pick APs for 11th just for the subjects she loves and buck the expectation of her peers that you take 4+ APs in junior year. She seems to be feeling better but we continue to talk about it.

DS also took his own path with ECs, preferring to spend time on a couple things at a hobby level, refusing any competitive engagement with them. He still had plenty to talk about in college essays and is happily going to Virginia Tech in the Fall. He had excellent grades and a bunch of AP classes but only in subjects of interest and never even took an honors-level science class because those required a science project and he hates doing science projects.

I just started reading this book and it seems like we did do a lot of what they suggest to nurture self-confidence (that's the first chapter)... Notice what actually interests your kids and nurture that, don't emphasize competition, provide space to focus on one thing.

This is such a helpful response. Thank you! You sound like great parents, and I hope to provide a similar home environment and support for my kids.

This post reminds me of another parenting book I liked, Late Bloomers, about practicing patience as your child finds his passions and hobbies on his own rather than being rushed to excel at an early age. I'm reading Thrivers now too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids attend an AAP center in McLean. They play sports and have good friends. They are not the best at anything and they are thriving. I am sure we are probably in what you consider a pressure cooker environment but it feels normal to us.

We are an Asian American family and I don’t feel my kids study all that much, especially compared to my family in Asia. My kids have quiet the leisurely life.

I do not put insane pressure on them. I expect good grades and effort. Their effort is quite minimal. They do their homework, study a little for tests and that is it.

That seems fine and not what the author is describing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids attend an AAP center in McLean. They play sports and have good friends. They are not the best at anything and they are thriving. I am sure we are probably in what you consider a pressure cooker environment but it feels normal to us.

We are an Asian American family and I don’t feel my kids study all that much, especially compared to my family in Asia. My kids have quiet the leisurely life.

I do not put insane pressure on them. I expect good grades and effort. Their effort is quite minimal. They do their homework, study a little for tests and that is it.

+1 eastern european immigrant here... the kids here have it very easy. You want a pressure cooker? Try 13-14 mandatory subjects plus a competitive sport. This kind of childhood actually taught me that you cannot be the best at everything or even one thing all the time, and I came out resilient and non-plussed when I inevitably came second, third, or dead last. Kids who are coddled and protected from loss, defeat, and hard work, end up with all kinds of mental issues down the line. The key is that you have to NORMALIZE failure at home. You fell? Great, dust off, get back on the horse. The first step to being good at something is being terrible at it.

I think the point is that these kids feel like they are not allowed to fail, which I agree leads to all sorts of mental health issues.

[Anonymous]

I went to high school in this area in the mid 1990s and the pressure to get into UVA from nova was unbelievably intense. But I guess it’s even worse now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in this area in the mid 1990s and the pressure to get into UVA from nova was unbelievably intense. But I guess it’s even worse now.

I skimmed through the college forum and yeah, it’s intense. I feel like many of us wouldn’t have gotten into our alma mater today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone read this book? It was recommended to me and some many of the descriptions of the kids remind me of kids in the DMV area. Just reading DCUM is exhausting as a parent. The expectations on kids to be perfect at every turn. Being good enough is no longer enough. The kid must be in GT/AAP, excel in EC, start sports at a young age, take tons of APs. In a highly rated public or private school, not some mediocre school! And even with all of that, college admissions are crazy hard. There was a much bigger margin of error when I was growing up. Perfection was not an expectation. According to the book’s author, something has to give because kids are experiencing record levels of depression and anxiety. They have perfect applications and resumes but are miserable and can’t function in the real world. And it’s a fine line in this area between encouraging your kids to do well and being an overbearing parent who pushes a kid too hard. Thoughts? Have you seen this? How do you handle it as a parent?

This is why I'm moving out of the Wootton district. My kid is just fine at school and activities, but he's not great. He's not high achieving. He's well rounded and average in many things. And living in this culture is doing a number on him. So I'm looking for something more reflective of regular American life. He will do fine in life with a career, etc. It just might take him a bit longer to get there. But I need his mental health to be solid.

Thanks for brining the book to my attention. I will check it out.

+1. Left Wootton for the same reason. Found that there was too much of a difference between our notion of childhood (and our parenting style) and our neighbors from Russia, Taiwan, South Korea, South Asia.

Well I'm a parent from Russia, and while I don't know exactly what you mean by the Russian notion of childhood, most of the Russian parents I know are doing what we're doing not necessarily because we want our kids ahead of the pack. It's because we remember our own childhood and while we like this country, we are appalled by the elementary years education even in the better schools. The utter lack of rigor, no homework, no textbooks, no system, no foundation set for the future, no classics, no foreign language, no algebra until god knows when, the complete absence of academic music schools, the amateurish quality of arts and music instruction...the list of goes. So we have to compensate it with extracurriculars outside of school. That's why we put our kids into RSMs, AoPSs, private music, ballet, what have you. We don't want them to miss what we had, even in our restricted, poor, under-resourced but over-educated country.

In fact, while I don't exactly understand this decision, a Russian-American family we know is relocating to Moscow when their youngest hits 5. They want the kids to have the benefit of rigorous, free schooling with cheap, high-quality extracurriculars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in this area in the mid 1990s and the pressure to get into UVA from nova was unbelievably intense. But I guess it’s even worse now.

Same. And yet I managed to do it with almost zero help or oversight from my parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone read this book? It was recommended to me and some many of the descriptions of the kids remind me of kids in the DMV area. Just reading DCUM is exhausting as a parent. The expectations on kids to be perfect at every turn. Being good enough is no longer enough. The kid must be in GT/AAP, excel in EC, start sports at a young age, take tons of APs. In a highly rated public or private school, not some mediocre school! And even with all of that, college admissions are crazy hard. There was a much bigger margin of error when I was growing up. Perfection was not an expectation. According to the book’s author, something has to give because kids are experiencing record levels of depression and anxiety. They have perfect applications and resumes but are miserable and can’t function in the real world. And it’s a fine line in this area between encouraging your kids to do well and being an overbearing parent who pushes a kid too hard. Thoughts? Have you seen this? How do you handle it as a parent?

This is why I'm moving out of the Wootton district. My kid is just fine at school and activities, but he's not great. He's not high achieving. He's well rounded and average in many things. And living in this culture is doing a number on him. So I'm looking for something more reflective of regular American life. He will do fine in life with a career, etc. It just might take him a bit longer to get there. But I need his mental health to be solid.

Thanks for brining the book to my attention. I will check it out.

+1. Left Wootton for the same reason. Found that there was too much of a difference between our notion of childhood (and our parenting style) and our neighbors from Russia, Taiwan, South Korea, South Asia.

Well I'm a parent from Russia, and while I don't know exactly what you mean by the Russian notion of childhood, most of the Russian parents I know are doing what we're doing not necessarily because we want our kids ahead of the pack. It's because we remember our own childhood and while we like this country, we are appalled by the elementary years education even in the better schools. The utter lack of rigor, no homework, no textbooks, no system, no foundation set for the future, no classics, no foreign language, no algebra until god knows when, the complete absence of academic music schools, the amateurish quality of arts and music instruction...the list of goes. So we have to compensate it with extracurriculars outside of school. That's why we put our kids into RSMs, AoPSs, private music, ballet, what have you. We don't want them to miss what we had, even in our restricted, poor, under-resourced but over-educated country.

In fact, while I don't exactly understand this decision, a Russian-American family we know is relocating to Moscow when their youngest hits 5. They want the kids to have the benefit of rigorous, free schooling with cheap, high-quality extracurriculars.

Sorry but I have no desire for the US to emulate Russia. There’s a happy medium.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone read this book? It was recommended to me and some many of the descriptions of the kids remind me of kids in the DMV area. Just reading DCUM is exhausting as a parent. The expectations on kids to be perfect at every turn. Being good enough is no longer enough. The kid must be in GT/AAP, excel in EC, start sports at a young age, take tons of APs. In a highly rated public or private school, not some mediocre school! And even with all of that, college admissions are crazy hard. There was a much bigger margin of error when I was growing up. Perfection was not an expectation. According to the book’s author, something has to give because kids are experiencing record levels of depression and anxiety. They have perfect applications and resumes but are miserable and can’t function in the real world. And it’s a fine line in this area between encouraging your kids to do well and being an overbearing parent who pushes a kid too hard. Thoughts? Have you seen this? How do you handle it as a parent?

This is why I'm moving out of the Wootton district. My kid is just fine at school and activities, but he's not great. He's not high achieving. He's well rounded and average in many things. And living in this culture is doing a number on him. So I'm looking for something more reflective of regular American life. He will do fine in life with a career, etc. It just might take him a bit longer to get there. But I need his mental health to be solid.

Thanks for brining the book to my attention. I will check it out.

+1. Left Wootton for the same reason. Found that there was too much of a difference between our notion of childhood (and our parenting style) and our neighbors from Russia, Taiwan, South Korea, South Asia.

Well I'm a parent from Russia, and while I don't know exactly what you mean by the Russian notion of childhood, most of the Russian parents I know are doing what we're doing not necessarily because we want our kids ahead of the pack. It's because we remember our own childhood and while we like this country, we are appalled by the elementary years education even in the better schools. The utter lack of rigor, no homework, no textbooks, no system, no foundation set for the future, no classics, no foreign language, no algebra until god knows when, the complete absence of academic music schools, the amateurish quality of arts and music instruction...the list of goes. So we have to compensate it with extracurriculars outside of school. That's why we put our kids into RSMs, AoPSs, private music, ballet, what have you. We don't want them to miss what we had, even in our restricted, poor, under-resourced but over-educated country.

In fact, while I don't exactly understand this decision, a Russian-American family we know is relocating to Moscow when their youngest hits 5. They want the kids to have the benefit of rigorous, free schooling with cheap, high-quality extracurriculars.

Do college acceptance trends say that all this is worth it? Or you just want your kids to have a better foundation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Do college acceptance trends say that all this is worth it? Or you just want your kids to have a better foundation?

It's not about college acceptance. It's more like...you can't really be considered educated until you've absorbed a certain amount of knowledge, a certain mass of literary, artistic and scientific accomplishments that this civilization has produced. It's not about practical application. Certainly I've never in my life had to use the rules of inorganic chemistry equations or recite The Galloway Legend, but I'm glad I've absorbed them and know that they exist.

[Anonymous]

I've just started the book and am already mistrusting it because of her misrepresentation of Amy Chua's book. That book was about the benefits of tiger parenting, yes, except when it wasn't. That's what the entire end of the book regarding her battle with Lulu and her account of her own father being estranged from his parents was about. It was about her own growth and realization that what worked for one daughter did not work for another and she had to adjust.

This book's summary of that is facile and misses that piece entirely and makes me doubt the rest of it. I'll keep going, though.

[Anonymous]

...her misrepresentation of Amy Chua's book. That book was about the benefits of tiger parenting, yes, except when it wasn't. That's what the entire end of the book regarding her battle with Lulu and her account of her own father being estranged from his parents was about. It was about her own growth and realization that what worked for one daughter did not work for another and she had to adjust.

Thank you for posting this! I read Amy Chua's book and also did not think it advocated tiger parenting - if anything, she was poking fun at herself for being so intense and crazy after she realized it had backfired. There was a lot of self-criticism in it disguised as humor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents are so involved with their kids nowadays, it’s insane. My mom had no idea who my friends were and frankly, didn’t care. She would get home from work and make dinner while smoking a cigarette and gossiping on the phone with my aunt. I played sports but didn’t do anything competitively until I was in middle school and then I had to pick one sport because we couldn’t afford more than that. The only books we had in the house were by Danielle Steel. My parents and I lived on different planets, and that was just fine. I went to college, I have a good job, and my parents and I have a good relationship. Now there’s all this pressure. People taking constant photos of their kids, scheduling their days and packing them full of classes. There’s also fear permeating everything. The kids can’t go outside by themselves, parents are calling teachers to check in on schoolwork, nobody can afford to make mistakes. No wonder these kids are so anxious.

It’s a different world. In some ways, our kids have it better. At the same time, I grieve for the fact that they won’t have as carefree a childhood.

True. In our days, you could be a below average student in school and still get a job out of it. Now, you have to actually be above average, compete globally, keep up your skills and most of the rote jobs have also gone away. Machines have replaced man. Even a bachelors degree will not help you climb the ladder, you need to get Masters or some other professional credentials.

But hey, look at the schools and the work place. People are mediocre, students are mediocre. There is a very small percentage of kids who are super achievers. This was true when i was at school. This is true even now.