New York Times Primal Scream Project - discuss...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're almost a year into this and you're married and you and DH are both working from home and yet you're still shouldering most of the DL, cleaning, cooking and childcare burden, I'd say "hang in there" until you and DH can assess the future of your relationship. I'd be absolutely furious if the burden of all of that was on me after all this time. I get that society is unfair and unequal, but, seriously, why are women putting up with this sh$t in the home?

Tbh, we have talked about it many many times. And I’ve yelled about it. And yes, I think this will affect our relationship for a long time. But I’ve made that clear to him and now I’m just trying to make the best of a shitty situation. It’s not going to help my kids, when they’re under enormous stress, to have a mother who resents and fumes at and yells at their dad. It just won’t help. So I’m sucking it up, meditating, pushing him when I can. When this is over, we will certainly see a therapist and hopefully can make it out of this together.

So I’m “putting up with this shit” because the other options available are worse right now. I’m glad your DH is more useful without you going nuclear, but mine isn’t, though he’s great In many other ways.

How? He doesn't listen to you and doesn't help with YOUR family. You sound like you're an abused spouse or something, trying to defend a guy who isn't helping, despite your screams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DW has a very demanding job, manager level and is the primary earner (but not interested in being breadwinner and having me SAH, and that would mean moving to some distant suburb for her to commute). I have a full time job, which all of my colleagues treat as a demanding role (their wives are almost universally pre-school or elementary teachers, so the priority is on their job not their wives) and they live in far suburbs like Prince William.

Which means I'm living like these NYT moms, caring for kids all day, calling into meetings and trying to keep my kids quit, working if they have a few minutes of independent play, and then catching up with work at night and weekends (time shifting is the recommended policy by my leadership). DW is basically on meetings from 8am-6pm, and her company does not tolerate cute kit interruptions like that BBC Interview Dad...

I worry the lack of sleep is going to leave me vulnerable if we catch COVID; I already have risk factors and should be spending more time exercising and getting healthier but that is like priority #99 in life right now. I honestly wish I could get by on less sleep.

And I worry about my career, I know my colleagues are curious about how it ALWAYS sounds like a circus when I have to speak during meetings, they make "jokes" about it now.

You're a great dad. My husband is similar to you, and his job is often more flexible than mine, meaning he is in charge of the kids many times while I'm on calls and in meetings I can't get out of. We moved out of DC last year (had nothing to do with COVID, just lucky timing), and I'm so glad we are now in a place where at least half the dads in our friend group are the same, meaning they are the primary parent for DL and other stuff. Before my husband felt like he was the only dad doing this stuff and now he isn't. I hope things get better for you. You sound like a really nice guy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing that strikes me the most in a lot of these articles is how the fathers are there but not really helping out. Like, they see their wives on a work call and the kid crying at the same time, and go take a nap on the couch or walk back to their office. It’s so enraging and depressing at once. Women are being failed by the system writ large but also in their own homes. My DH is not perfect but he would never pull crap like that. We both work in a school, and as of this fall, I am teaching, he is an administrator, kids are also at daycare and school, albeit with lots of changes and restrictions. We have been lucky where I live, so lucky. My heart goes out to the mothers who are juggling these roles...I was there last spring, and it was so, so hard.

Yeah, I don't get this. Make your husbands step up. Call them out on their bull$%!#. My husband isn't a saint, and it's been hard work for both of us to be able to get on the same page, but it was worth the effort. Schedule hours where one of you is in charge. Be flexible. Be kind. How can you be married to someone and not give a crap how they're doing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^Yes, but the problem with just "hanging in there" is that the systemic failures are being disproportionately borne by moms & kids (and of course much more disadvantaged groups both within and outside this category). But everyone is so eff'ing exhausted, they can't do anything about it in terms of pushing systemic change. Vicious circle.

(Not a slam! I am exactly in the same position.)

I’m the PP, and it absolutely BLOWS, and all I can do is hang in there. I can’t afford to really explode or crash or whatever. I’ve made clear to my (male) boss that I’m holding on by a thread and he’s been pretty good about letting me do what I need to do. The unfairness is out of control—my husband does so little of the childcare and other invisible work—but if I blow up our relationship, as I am often tempted to do, it’s creating more problems and not really solving anything.

So...I’m just hanging in there.

Female manager here. You have a serious husband problem. Fix that and then look for accommodations at work.

Yeah. I know. What do you propose I do? I’ve tried a lot of different things short of leaving him, which I’m not willing to do right now.

Write down a schedule. Figure out who does what when. Include work calls and other commitments. My husband knows which days he's responsible for which meals, which ones I'm doing, and which ones we're doing together. We discuss on the weekend who is taking the dogs out, who is getting the kids dressed, who is making breakfast, etc., etc., etc. Maybe that sounds exhausting, but it's easier than having someone be the default all the time. This morning I had work calls, so he had the kids. This afternoon he has calls, so I have them. Tomorrow is the opposite. I made lunch today, he's making dinner tonight. Sometimes things change when something arises at the last minute, so then we communicate about it and figure out what needs to give.

If your husband won't do that, and you won't leave him, then start living like he doesn't exist. Don't do his laundry. Don't make meals for him. Plan what you want and what you need when YOU want/need it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

I have kids but I agree with you. Why would we ask someone who doesn't have kids to help us take care of ours? They chose not to have kids for a reason, just like I chose to have only two kids and not four. I'm all for friends helping each other out and all, but that's mutual assistance. This is asking people who decided not to have kids to take on a burden in exchange for nothing. What? Why?

[Anonymous]

Hey, so not everyone has a husband (/partner). Some of us DID leave our spouses because they sucked. It doesn't actually mean you have to do less work, it just means you don't have to be mad about that other person in the house not doing work.

[Anonymous]

Two points about the article:

1) I hear and have heard repeatedly that moms should not complain about the enormous sh*t we are putting up with during the pandemic because that hurts teachers. I'm not making this up. So I found the article refreshing because at least it aired something that I've been explicitly told to hide.

2) People who aren't parents really really don't seem to understand the hellscape that some parents have been going through with the DL + working thing. So hey, maybe someone outside the parent-sphere will read this and remember this aspect of the pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two points about the article:

1) I hear and have heard repeatedly that moms should not complain about the enormous sh*t we are putting up with during the pandemic because that hurts teachers. I'm not making this up. So I found the article refreshing because at least it aired something that I've been explicitly told to hide.

2) People who aren't parents really really don't seem to understand the hellscape that some parents have been going through with the DL + working thing. So hey, maybe someone outside the parent-sphere will read this and remember this aspect of the pandemic.

So working + coordinating the distance learning is difficult.
Why does that mean that the parents employers should be the one to accommodate/bare the brunt of this?

Instead it should be put on the SCHOOLS to teach, not the employers to accommodate the lack of public school.

[Anonymous]

I haven't been able to fully read this piece because I AM SO TRIGGERED.

So yeah, it's spot on.

Sadly, +100. I have to read it in bits and pieces, or else, y'know, go blind with rage...

And for the critics, yes, the article is not really breaking new ground. But I do think the act of compiling stories and linking them with the facts and figures is a service. It is too easy to dismiss or deflect the impact of the pandemic on mothers (/parents) if the whole picture is not depicted. (See Exhibit A, all the PPs pretending like this is just a one specific DW's failure with respect to her unique lout of a DH.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

Ok, what about you? What was your plan for childcare before COVID? Daycare, right? Many daycares are open. But, let's assume out of abundance of caution, you don't want to send your 2 kids (soon to be 3) to any childcare arrangement outside of home. Guess what. For the cost of 2 daycares (~3-3.5K depending on the ages) you can get a nanny to provide care in your home. Infant daycare is more like 2K+ in DC metro area (again, in non-Covid times), so with that math even with no pandemic you're better off with an individual nanny. Do you homework, screen them, pick someone whose risk tolerance is similar to yours, and that's your solution.

This assumes a high quality, COVID safe nanny is 1) available 2) affordable 3) taking all proper precautions and 4) you have the space in your home to accommodate them (ie you don’t live in apartment and have a driveway so they can park their car and not get towed being parked on your street all day, that you have a single family home or town house with adequate space to set up for the nanny to supervise the children while potentially mom and dad work elsewhere in the house - meaning there’s a home office and multiple living spaces - which is not a reality for those in small condos or apartments). Such a privileged mentality to not recognize the actual difficulties here. Also - nannies are in short supply right now and charging a premium.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I haven't been able to fully read this piece because I AM SO TRIGGERED.

So yeah, it's spot on.

Sadly, +100. I have to read it in bits and pieces, or else, y'know, go blind with rage...

And for the critics, yes, the article is not really breaking new ground. But I do think the act of compiling stories and linking them with the facts and figures is a service. It is too easy to dismiss or deflect the impact of the pandemic on mothers (/parents) if the whole picture is not depicted. (See Exhibit A, all the PPs pretending like this is just a one specific DW's failure with respect to her unique lout of a DH.)

Yes, and the fact that it's in the NYT means the issue is going to get more notice. Yes, it's nothing that's not been on DCUM, but the NYT reaches a wider audience. Feels like we've been screaming and nobody's been listening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a version of what our society has done to poor women, who disproportionately women of color, for, what, our whole history? Part of the system maintaining itself is keeping women too exhausted to advocate for change, as a PP noted.

My primal scream is in response to “school is not daycare,” because, yes, school is a form of childcare. I will always be enraged at anyone who dared say that, particularly teachers. I don’t expect them to solve it, but if you don’t acknowledge this truth, GFY.

I don't think individual teachers say this very often, at least not any more. It was a union talking point, but unions have mostly quietly dropped it because they saw so much angry response from it. Unions are aware of just how angry community members are, and have pivoted their talking points. These days it's mostly said by isolated and wealthy white women.

It's a horrible thing to say. One of the nastiest parts of this pandemic has been hearing hearing unions and teachers wildly disparage childcare workers.

And the truth is, most women would never have returned to work or even started working without their kids going to school. When would these people who say this be comfortable with women working? At what grade/age?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

Ok, what about you? What was your plan for childcare before COVID? Daycare, right? Many daycares are open. But, let's assume out of abundance of caution, you don't want to send your 2 kids (soon to be 3) to any childcare arrangement outside of home. Guess what. For the cost of 2 daycares (~3-3.5K depending on the ages) you can get a nanny to provide care in your home. Infant daycare is more like 2K+ in DC metro area (again, in non-Covid times), so with that math even with no pandemic you're better off with an individual nanny. Do you homework, screen them, pick someone whose risk tolerance is similar to yours, and that's your solution.

This assumes a high quality, COVID safe nanny is 1) available 2) affordable 3) taking all proper precautions and 4) you have the space in your home to accommodate them (ie you don’t live in apartment and have a driveway so they can park their car and not get towed being parked on your street all day, that you have a single family home or town house with adequate space to set up for the nanny to supervise the children while potentially mom and dad work elsewhere in the house - meaning there’s a home office and multiple living spaces - which is not a reality for those in small condos or apartments). Such a privileged mentality to not recognize the actual difficulties here. Also - nannies are in short supply right now and charging a premium.

Did you not read the part where I did the math? What entitles the PP to a high quality affordable nanny? Affordable by whose standards? If pre-covid a daycare teacher per 4-8 kids was enough, then same daycare teacher is looking for a job on sittercity or care-dot-com (or a similar care provider). If you can swing 2 daycare costs - you can hire a nanny. If you can swing 2 daycares and 1 infant care - you can hire a good quality nanny.

No parking spot in the condo? Parking garage is $20 per day or less and bam, nobody is towed.

Adequate space is a subjective term. Every family decides what's adequate for them. If you decided to have 3 kids in a small condo apt, then that's adequate for your situation. Parents take one bedroom as office, kids + nanny have remainder of the space to play, whatever that remainder is. Both parents need to be on a call at the same time? one goes to apt building lobby or to the car if it's super private.

I assure you, nannies are not in a short supply. They are plentiful. It's up to you to do the due diligence and screen and interview about precautions. So, in short, it can be done.
Yes, the past year sucked and was complicated for most people and most choices we have are suboptimal. But it doesn't mean it can't be done.

And daycares are also open if none of the above fits or works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

Ok, what about you? What was your plan for childcare before COVID? Daycare, right? Many daycares are open. But, let's assume out of abundance of caution, you don't want to send your 2 kids (soon to be 3) to any childcare arrangement outside of home. Guess what. For the cost of 2 daycares (~3-3.5K depending on the ages) you can get a nanny to provide care in your home. Infant daycare is more like 2K+ in DC metro area (again, in non-Covid times), so with that math even with no pandemic you're better off with an individual nanny. Do you homework, screen them, pick someone whose risk tolerance is similar to yours, and that's your solution.

This assumes a high quality, COVID safe nanny is 1) available 2) affordable 3) taking all proper precautions and 4) you have the space in your home to accommodate them (ie you don’t live in apartment and have a driveway so they can park their car and not get towed being parked on your street all day, that you have a single family home or town house with adequate space to set up for the nanny to supervise the children while potentially mom and dad work elsewhere in the house - meaning there’s a home office and multiple living spaces - which is not a reality for those in small condos or apartments). Such a privileged mentality to not recognize the actual difficulties here. Also - nannies are in short supply right now and charging a premium.

Did you not read the part where I did the math? What entitles the PP to a high quality affordable nanny? Affordable by whose standards? If pre-covid a daycare teacher per 4-8 kids was enough, then same daycare teacher is looking for a job on sittercity or care-dot-com (or a similar care provider). If you can swing 2 daycare costs - you can hire a nanny. If you can swing 2 daycares and 1 infant care - you can hire a good quality nanny.

No parking spot in the condo? Parking garage is $20 per day or less and bam, nobody is towed.

Adequate space is a subjective term. Every family decides what's adequate for them. If you decided to have 3 kids in a small condo apt, then that's adequate for your situation. Parents take one bedroom as office, kids + nanny have remainder of the space to play, whatever that remainder is. Both parents need to be on a call at the same time? one goes to apt building lobby or to the car if it's super private.

I assure you, nannies are not in a short supply. They are plentiful. It's up to you to do the due diligence and screen and interview about precautions. So, in short, it can be done.
Yes, the past year sucked and was complicated for most people and most choices we have are suboptimal. But it doesn't mean it can't be done.

And daycares are also open if none of the above fits or works.

And what about those who are choosing no care and are trying to maintain their jobs because they feel that’s the only socially responsible choice right now? I suppose you think all those people should lose their jobs because they have a different tolerance for risk than you do and feel that parents being asked to choose between providing for their family and risking their health is an unfair choice. There are literally millions of parents doing care and work with no help because they don’t feel daycare and schools are safe right now. In most school districts parents who had to choose between in person and virtual learning saw at least 1/3 choose all levels virtual. It’s not just as simple as “open the schools” and “daycare is open” or “just hire a nanny.” With 400,000 plus souls dead from the virus many parents are unwilling to use their kids as guinea pigs. You can scream all you want til you are blue in the face that daycare/nannies/schools are safe and maybe they’ve been for your family but they still not convince millions of others who don’t agree with you and it also doesn’t make your choice more right or legitimate. Your choice is just different and only in hindsight will we really know how the chips fell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
And what about those who are choosing no care and are trying to maintain their jobs because they feel that’s the only socially responsible choice right now? I suppose you think all those people should lose their jobs because they have a different tolerance for risk than you do and feel that parents being asked to choose between providing for their family and risking their health is an unfair choice. There are literally millions of parents doing care and work with no help because they don’t feel daycare and schools are safe right now. In most school districts parents who had to choose between in person and virtual learning saw at least 1/3 choose all levels virtual. It’s not just as simple as “open the schools” and “daycare is open” or “just hire a nanny.” With 400,000 plus souls dead from the virus many parents are unwilling to use their kids as guinea pigs. You can scream all you want til you are blue in the face that daycare/nannies/schools are safe and maybe they’ve been for your family but they still not convince millions of others who don’t agree with you and it also doesn’t make your choice more right or legitimate. Your choice is just different and only in hindsight will we really know how the chips fell.

There are solutions, these patents have agency, and if they CHOOSE not to make use of available childcare options, then they are also choosing to put their jobs/marriages/mental health at risk. It may be a worthwhile trade off versus their physical health, but it is still a choice. Complaining that literally every single option won’t work is utterly pointless.