New York Times Primal Scream Project - discuss...

[Anonymous]

I like this response

[Anonymous]

My number one thought is, just open schools already.

But also when reading the article, I just thought these people's lives sounded crazy, pandemic or not. They are all over extended, even before you factor in lack of childcare. A single mom who works full time and is also in school. A family where the dad has 3 jobs to pay their mortgage. Another family with a severely autistic child and the mother still somehow works full time and has a ton of hobbies on the side. I don't think the problem with these people's lives is purely lack of childcare/school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a version of what our society has done to poor women, who disproportionately women of color, for, what, our whole history? Part of the system maintaining itself is keeping women too exhausted to advocate for change, as a PP noted.

My primal scream is in response to “school is not daycare,” because, yes, school is a form of childcare. I will always be enraged at anyone who dared say that, particularly teachers. I don’t expect them to solve it, but if you don’t acknowledge this truth, GFY.

I don't think individual teachers say this very often, at least not any more. It was a union talking point, but unions have mostly quietly dropped it because they saw so much angry response from it. Unions are aware of just how angry community members are, and have pivoted their talking points. These days it's mostly said by isolated and wealthy white women.

It's a horrible thing to say. One of the nastiest parts of this pandemic has been hearing hearing unions and teachers wildly disparage childcare workers.

I know a few teachers who said it back in late summer/early fall. And I can’t unsee it, and I will never forgive them for it. The ones who said it publicly generally have poor judgment, but I do wonder how many teachers felt it but knew better than to say it publicly. Their disparaging people who work in childcare and working parents (mostly moms) in one fell swoop. It’s disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My number one thought is, just open schools already.

But also when reading the article, I just thought these people's lives sounded crazy, pandemic or not. They are all over extended, even before you factor in lack of childcare. A single mom who works full time and is also in school. A family where the dad has 3 jobs to pay their mortgage. Another family with a severely autistic child and the mother still somehow works full time and has a ton of hobbies on the side. I don't think the problem with these people's lives is purely lack of childcare/school.

Yes, a lot of people are crazily overextended just trying to get their bills paid. The new book Work Won’t Love You Back covers in detail. It’s great. Articles like this remind me how damn lucky we are. Solidarity. And support for a universal child allowance (Romney plan) and then UBI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

[Anonymous]

The thing that strikes me the most in a lot of these articles is how the fathers are there but not really helping out. Like, they see their wives on a work call and the kid crying at the same time, and go take a nap on the couch or walk back to their office. It’s so enraging and depressing at once. Women are being failed by the system writ large but also in their own homes. My DH is not perfect but he would never pull crap like that. We both work in a school, and as of this fall, I am teaching, he is an administrator, kids are also at daycare and school, albeit with lots of changes and restrictions. We have been lucky where I live, so lucky. My heart goes out to the mothers who are juggling these roles...I was there last spring, and it was so, so hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^Yes, but the problem with just "hanging in there" is that the systemic failures are being disproportionately borne by moms & kids (and of course much more disadvantaged groups both within and outside this category). But everyone is so eff'ing exhausted, they can't do anything about it in terms of pushing systemic change. Vicious circle.

(Not a slam! I am exactly in the same position.)

I’m the PP, and it absolutely BLOWS, and all I can do is hang in there. I can’t afford to really explode or crash or whatever. I’ve made clear to my (male) boss that I’m holding on by a thread and he’s been pretty good about letting me do what I need to do. The unfairness is out of control—my husband does so little of the childcare and other invisible work—but if I blow up our relationship, as I am often tempted to do, it’s creating more problems and not really solving anything.

So...I’m just hanging in there.

Female manager here. You have a serious husband problem. Fix that and then look for accommodations at work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

I don’t see what your comment has to do with the comment you’re responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a version of what our society has done to poor women, who disproportionately women of color, for, what, our whole history? Part of the system maintaining itself is keeping women too exhausted to advocate for change, as a PP noted.

My primal scream is in response to “school is not daycare,” because, yes, school is a form of childcare. I will always be enraged at anyone who dared say that, particularly teachers. I don’t expect them to solve it, but if you don’t acknowledge this truth, GFY.

I don't think individual teachers say this very often, at least not any more. It was a union talking point, but unions have mostly quietly dropped it because they saw so much angry response from it. Unions are aware of just how angry community members are, and have pivoted their talking points. These days it's mostly said by isolated and wealthy white women.

It's a horrible thing to say. One of the nastiest parts of this pandemic has been hearing hearing unions and teachers wildly disparage childcare workers.

I know a few teachers who said it back in late summer/early fall. And I can’t unsee it, and I will never forgive them for it. The ones who said it publicly generally have poor judgment, but I do wonder how many teachers felt it but knew better than to say it publicly. Their disparaging people who work in childcare and working parents (mostly moms) in one fell swoop. It’s disgusting.

I have seen it on here A LOT. Maybe trolls or people stirring the pot but a lot of nastiness toward people who are just trying to cope with an unprecedented bad situation.

"School is not childcare"

Anytime people advocate for school re-opening or how hard this is:
"You just want someone else to take care of your kids."
"You're just pissed because now you have to actually take care of your kids."

Anytime people describe how their life has been upended by closing of schools and other supports, and they don't have money to put in private or hire a tutor or nanny:
"You should have planned better before you had kids"
"Why did you have kids if you couldn't take care of them?"

As if depending on the fact that school-age children go to school and that public school (which has existed in this form for decades) is available to them was some kind of wild assumption on the part of parents in planning their working lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I hate that they paint this to be just a women’s issue. My husband and I are both struggling. I know many other men doing their share also struggling. Painting this in black and white terms as a problem that only impacts women is not accurate.

Why are people so afraid to say something disproportionately affects women?? It can both disproportionately affect mothers and affect many men as well (single parent Dad?) or in different, harmful ways. Doesn't mean we can't discuss the former. And the endless deflection is part of the problem.

I get what the PP is saying - in our personal experience our husbands are doing a lot. But I recognize that isn’t the case for many. Women had to leave jobs, single moms (of which there are more than single dads) have it especially rough. Something has to give and it is often the moms job.

I didn’t necessarily “give” since my job was flexible before too. Like many moms, I carry more invisible work (appointments, worrying about development and reading about parenting, child care planning, clothes, doctors etc), which is of course “more.” But day to day my husband takes equal physical care of the kids (meaning we both spend equal hours a day with our small kids), but when they go to bed at 7 and we get the house picked up (~730), my husband has to get back to work on his laptop and often works till 12. I don’t have to do that bc my job is more flexible (and I am happy with my career, don’t want more). So on a day to day basis my husband is way way way more stressed than I am. I can do some self care between 8-10 each night. He has zero time for that. If the kids wake up early I try to let him sleep in a bit (if 6:30 is sleeping in!) because I feel so terrible for how tired he must be from sleeping just 5 or 6 hours a night. It’s gotta be way worse for single moms who work. I also have a lot of empathy for sahms right now. My friends who stay home really relied being able to get out of the house. They can’t do that as easily so there is no way to break up the day. At least I can say “mommy has a call sweetie.”

I think what you're missing is that this is true for a lot of us, but the "invisible work" or more accurately, the "executive household management" is what breaks us down. I'm lucky to have a nanny who takes on some of this, but after 1 year I'm simply exhausted. My job is also one with a high level of executive demands, and I'm just completely exhausted with always having to make decisions, having to anticipate issues, or having to solve problems...particularly those that were avoidable with a little up front planning.

DH has a demanding and complex job, and I know he spends a ton of his time thinking ahead and trying to anticipate and avoid problems. At home, he just reacts...meaning that kids will be cranky and hungry by the time it occurs to him that they need to be fed, and then there's another time lag while food is being prepared. I know the common advice is to leave the house or just ignore when this happens...but that ultimately means it's a consequence for me. I don't want to leave the house. I don't want to hide in a corner where I can't hear the chaos. I just want him to occasionally take ownership of a meal, which includes thinking ahead so he can be ready with food at the time when people are hungry.

And if women were rewarded or recognized in any way for all of this, it would probably be better. But even at work we don't get rewarded as well as our male colleagues for our ability to multi-task and handle complex situations.

PP here, sorry if I led you to think I was unique in some way! I know women carry that work. I wanted to explain to the earlier PP that the helpful husband + “easier” job combo is not that common which is why this hits women harder. I also word vomited . I’m not unique in carrying that load and it sounds like a lot of husbands aren’t carrying any load. My job is what helps me - I have space at the end of the day. I am senior leadership at a big tech company but I very thankfully switched functions (think product management to something related to people). I make slightly less than I did before. Outside of having stability in money, it’s probably the reason why I don’t think I’m going to snap. That and weekly therapy (haha). But even that choice (which I made before the pandemic) is a choice to be more at home than work, which my husband is not also making. I was sick of the dynamic you mention - less reward for more complex decision making capacity and working with a bunch of a-hole men. I can see how I am part of that statistic of women scaling back even though I don’t want to think I am (I have an MBA from one of those schools profiled in the nYT few years back about their female grads staying home with kids - when I was young I thought “not me!”). I dunno. We can’t have it all. It sucks. I’m glad people are watching now.

I really feel for you and others who have fast paced/high pressure jobs. I’ve been there and no way could I handle it with kids at home right now. This is why so many women drop out. You can’t be on your game all day and keep the same pace at home. I’m pretty horrified by the dynamics so many have at home with husbands who can’t proactively parent. I don’t have any platitudes to send you... just that I hear you. Hope your husband figures out that he can start dinner before they whine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^Yes, but the problem with just "hanging in there" is that the systemic failures are being disproportionately borne by moms & kids (and of course much more disadvantaged groups both within and outside this category). But everyone is so eff'ing exhausted, they can't do anything about it in terms of pushing systemic change. Vicious circle.

(Not a slam! I am exactly in the same position.)

I’m the PP, and it absolutely BLOWS, and all I can do is hang in there. I can’t afford to really explode or crash or whatever. I’ve made clear to my (male) boss that I’m holding on by a thread and he’s been pretty good about letting me do what I need to do. The unfairness is out of control—my husband does so little of the childcare and other invisible work—but if I blow up our relationship, as I am often tempted to do, it’s creating more problems and not really solving anything.

So...I’m just hanging in there.

Female manager here. You have a serious husband problem. Fix that and then look for accommodations at work.

Yeah. I know. What do you propose I do? I’ve tried a lot of different things short of leaving him, which I’m not willing to do right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

Listen none of us have made decisions factoring in covid risk before 2020 but now we have to. You have decided that the small risk of getting covid through childcare matters more than anything else. That is your decision. Other people are making different choices and I’m just going to say it are doing much better. I have three kids all out of the house because I work full time and that it what makes me and my family function. I read the NYT article and thought mostly “this is your fault”. It’s January 2021 there are options (unless you can’t afford which I’m not sure is all the NYT families). Every daycare and preschool is open. Dr. Fauci himself has a cleaning lady. And my husband got a vasectomy this year so there won’t be anymore surprises for us. Self help ladies. Yes our government has failed us with lack of maternity leave and subsidized childcare but 2020 is also the story of a ton of unnecessary hand wringing and martyrdom and lack of self help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vaccinate the teachers. Then open the damn schools. - my primal scream

That's great for you but what about me? My kids aren't school-aged yet. They were both supposed to be in preschool but I pulled them out due to covid concerns when, despite using birth control, I found out I'm pregnant with our 3rd. And now I don't want to send the baby to daycare until she's maybe 6 months or a year old for her health and safety.

Listen none of us have made decisions factoring in covid risk before 2020 but now we have to. You have decided that the small risk of getting covid through childcare matters more than anything else. That is your decision. Other people are making different choices and I’m just going to say it are doing much better. I have three kids all out of the house because I work full time and that it what makes me and my family function. I read the NYT article and thought mostly “this is your fault”. It’s January 2021 there are options (unless you can’t afford which I’m not sure is all the NYT families). Every daycare and preschool is open. Dr. Fauci himself has a cleaning lady. And my husband got a vasectomy this year so there won’t be anymore surprises for us. Self help ladies. Yes our government has failed us with lack of maternity leave and subsidized childcare but 2020 is also the story of a ton of unnecessary hand wringing and martyrdom and lack of self help.

It’s a “pick yourself up by your bootstraps” poster. Wow, I guess you don’t think the virus is serious then. Yes, my life would be a million times easier if I sent my asthmatic child and infant to child care. But I’m not comfortable doing so given that the virus is mutating, and the fact that the death and infection rates are higher than they have ever been. Options exist if you are comfortable assuming risk for the benefit of your options. Those of use who prioritize our families health and safety over our own comfort and are willing to sacrifice are routinely lambasted for this choice. I already know several people who died of Covid already. I’m not risking that for my vulnerable kids, and you need to respect my decision as I respect yours. Not everyone has older kids who are healthy. Some of us have infants and newborns who have never been sick. Some of us have kids with medical conditions. And everyone I know who is sending their kids to daycare has spent so many weeks quarantining because of exposures or out because of colds that have to be treated like Covid and tested for, that it’s hardly worth it to them because of all the increased stress and anxiety and lost care.

[Anonymous]

Also, every daycare and preschool is NOT open. That’s a bold faced lie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a version of what our society has done to poor women, who disproportionately women of color, for, what, our whole history? Part of the system maintaining itself is keeping women too exhausted to advocate for change, as a PP noted.

My primal scream is in response to “school is not daycare,” because, yes, school is a form of childcare. I will always be enraged at anyone who dared say that, particularly teachers. I don’t expect them to solve it, but if you don’t acknowledge this truth, GFY.

I don't think individual teachers say this very often, at least not any more. It was a union talking point, but unions have mostly quietly dropped it because they saw so much angry response from it. Unions are aware of just how angry community members are, and have pivoted their talking points. These days it's mostly said by isolated and wealthy white women.

It's a horrible thing to say. One of the nastiest parts of this pandemic has been hearing hearing unions and teachers wildly disparage childcare workers.

I know a few teachers who said it back in late summer/early fall. And I can’t unsee it, and I will never forgive them for it. The ones who said it publicly generally have poor judgment, but I do wonder how many teachers felt it but knew better than to say it publicly. Their disparaging people who work in childcare and working parents (mostly moms) in one fell swoop. It’s disgusting.

I have seen it on here A LOT. Maybe trolls or people stirring the pot but a lot of nastiness toward people who are just trying to cope with an unprecedented bad situation.

"School is not childcare"

Anytime people advocate for school re-opening or how hard this is:
"You just want someone else to take care of your kids."
"You're just pissed because now you have to actually take care of your kids."

Anytime people describe how their life has been upended by closing of schools and other supports, and they don't have money to put in private or hire a tutor or nanny:
"You should have planned better before you had kids"
"Why did you have kids if you couldn't take care of them?"

As if depending on the fact that school-age children go to school and that public school (which has existed in this form for decades) is available to them was some kind of wild assumption on the part of parents in planning their working lives.

Some people are advocating for the reopening of schools because they actually want their children to get an education!

My kids are older (high school.) "Daycare" is not an issue for my kids. Calculus is. Neither my husband nor I have done higher level math in decades and we are absolutely not equipped to teach our kids. Open the schools!