New York Times Primal Scream Project - discuss...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read the piece that talked about a societal betrayal of families and children, and that's how I have felt since this all began. Women are implicitly expected to do most childcare work, yet that work is also undervalued. I don't think teachers should have returned to unsafe conditions, but the fact that schools are the last priority of our society is the problem.

You just equated schools with child care. School is not childcare. You are undervaluing education when you do this. Hire a nanny.

Give it a rest already! No one is devaluing education while acknowledging that children are CARED FOR while at school. Honestly, all you people who argue about this are the dumbest people on DCUM, and that's saying something.

+100
There are still quite a number of people out there, both men and women, who are uncomfortable with working mothers. To them, this is a sort of punishment working mothers deserve. Tsk, tsk, schools aren't daycare, you have a lot of nerve working full-time when you chose to get pregnant. It's a very unforgiving bunch. Perhaps the economy needs a day without working mothers. Don't spend a single dime of your paycheck to show we're part of the economy.

No one even remotely implied that. You’re overreacting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read the piece that talked about a societal betrayal of families and children, and that's how I have felt since this all began. Women are implicitly expected to do most childcare work, yet that work is also undervalued. I don't think teachers should have returned to unsafe conditions, but the fact that schools are the last priority of our society is the problem.

You just equated schools with child care. School is not childcare. You are undervaluing education when you do this. Hire a nanny.

Give it a rest already! No one is devaluing education while acknowledging that children are CARED FOR while at school. Honestly, all you people who argue about this are the dumbest people on DCUM, and that's saying something.

+100
There are still quite a number of people out there, both men and women, who are uncomfortable with working mothers. To them, this is a sort of punishment working mothers deserve. Tsk, tsk, schools aren't daycare, you have a lot of nerve working full-time when you chose to get pregnant. It's a very unforgiving bunch. Perhaps the economy needs a day without working mothers. Don't spend a single dime of your paycheck to show we're part of the economy.

Yup.

I’m done thinking small. We all should work less and still have enough to support a family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read the piece that talked about a societal betrayal of families and children, and that's how I have felt since this all began. Women are implicitly expected to do most childcare work, yet that work is also undervalued. I don't think teachers should have returned to unsafe conditions, but the fact that schools are the last priority of our society is the problem.

You just equated schools with child care. School is not childcare. You are undervaluing education when you do this. Hire a nanny.

Give it a rest already! No one is devaluing education while acknowledging that children are CARED FOR while at school. Honestly, all you people who argue about this are the dumbest people on DCUM, and that's saying something.

+100
There are still quite a number of people out there, both men and women, who are uncomfortable with working mothers. To them, this is a sort of punishment working mothers deserve. Tsk, tsk, schools aren't daycare, you have a lot of nerve working full-time when you chose to get pregnant. It's a very unforgiving bunch. Perhaps the economy needs a day without working mothers. Don't spend a single dime of your paycheck to show we're part of the economy.

Yup.

I’m done thinking small. We all should work less and still have enough to support a family.

Can we get pink hats?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

Those of us without kids are already picking up the slack in many offices. I've been doing the work of 1.75 FTE since last April. My coworkers know and say thank you, but I don't have a choice.

Yeah. But it's kind of interesting to see that some women have higher standards for childless women than they do for their own husbands. You need help? Start asking your DH for help. It's really sort of sexist that they expect other women to work for free just so their DH can maintain his lifestyle of doing nothing. I'm just not interested in doing additional work because a woman bred with a loser and she doesn't care to fix her household.

NP. +100 "Where is my village?" is always code for "I expect other women to chip in with my domestic labor for free."

This!

I don't think that's always true. Our group of friends is a village. If someone needs their kid picked up from school, they text and one of us will do it. When one family gets sick, the others chip in and help out in whatever way possible. When someone has a baby, we plan a meal train. When someone has surgery, we take turns keeping their kids. And so on and so forth. Yes, some people give more than others and some take more than others. But I figure in the end it'll either even out or I'll be grateful that I was able to give more than I got or that I had friends who were willing to give when I couldn't. We've been through deaths, divorces, affairs, deployments, etc. We will help each other out at the drop of a hat and we each have our strengths. The one with the minivan ends up picking kids up more often. We have a huge kitchen and love to cook so we end up making meals more. Another family has more kids so they're always willing to add another to the mix. Both moms and dads step up. I honestly didn't think this existed until I moved to this neighborhood, but it can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

Those of us without kids are already picking up the slack in many offices. I've been doing the work of 1.75 FTE since last April. My coworkers know and say thank you, but I don't have a choice.

Yeah. But it's kind of interesting to see that some women have higher standards for childless women than they do for their own husbands. You need help? Start asking your DH for help. It's really sort of sexist that they expect other women to work for free just so their DH can maintain his lifestyle of doing nothing. I'm just not interested in doing additional work because a woman bred with a loser and she doesn't care to fix her household.

NP. +100 "Where is my village?" is always code for "I expect other women to chip in with my domestic labor for free."

This!

I don't think that's always true. Our group of friends is a village. If someone needs their kid picked up from school, they text and one of us will do it. When one family gets sick, the others chip in and help out in whatever way possible. When someone has a baby, we plan a meal train. When someone has surgery, we take turns keeping their kids. And so on and so forth. Yes, some people give more than others and some take more than others. But I figure in the end it'll either even out or I'll be grateful that I was able to give more than I got or that I had friends who were willing to give when I couldn't. We've been through deaths, divorces, affairs, deployments, etc. We will help each other out at the drop of a hat and we each have our strengths. The one with the minivan ends up picking kids up more often. We have a huge kitchen and love to cook so we end up making meals more. Another family has more kids so they're always willing to add another to the mix. Both moms and dads step up. I honestly didn't think this existed until I moved to this neighborhood, but it can.

How are you doing this during COVID? And you simply described “friendship”. We all have this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you all need a palate cleanser after the typical unending DCUM "but here's why it's really your fault lady" conversation (I do!), it is refreshing to read a take from a non-cis woman (Roxane Gay) and commentators who don't feel the need to tie themselves into knots to defend and normalize this behavior:

https://twitter.com/rgay/status/1358890790781521922

I don’t understand the incentive for heterosexuality. In this article, the husband comes home, sees his wife working and helping their daughter with autism attend school. She is harried. He points out that his wife needs to help the daughter respond to her teacher.

He DOESNT JUMP IN TO HELP. He just gets his snack. That is grounds for divorce. The women in this piece are working and parenting while their husbands work and shirk parenting.

Ditch these men. There is absolutely no incentive to stay with them.

I’m confused—are the women who don’t ditch these men (for whatever reason) at fault or no? Because there are mixed messages happening here. On the one hand you have people saying they’re suffering and on the other I’m hearing people tell them it’s ultimately their own fault if they are suffering because they should “fix their household” or leave the husband or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read the piece that talked about a societal betrayal of families and children, and that's how I have felt since this all began. Women are implicitly expected to do most childcare work, yet that work is also undervalued. I don't think teachers should have returned to unsafe conditions, but the fact that schools are the last priority of our society is the problem.

You just equated schools with child care. School is not childcare. You are undervaluing education when you do this. Hire a nanny.

Give it a rest already! No one is devaluing education while acknowledging that children are CARED FOR while at school. Honestly, all you people who argue about this are the dumbest people on DCUM, and that's saying something.

+100
There are still quite a number of people out there, both men and women, who are uncomfortable with working mothers. To them, this is a sort of punishment working mothers deserve. Tsk, tsk, schools aren't daycare, you have a lot of nerve working full-time when you chose to get pregnant. It's a very unforgiving bunch. Perhaps the economy needs a day without working mothers. Don't spend a single dime of your paycheck to show we're part of the economy.

No one even remotely implied that. You’re overreacting.

DP, but that mindset is so inherent to "school is not childcare." That phrase seethes with hostility towards working mothers. PP is spot-on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read the piece that talked about a societal betrayal of families and children, and that's how I have felt since this all began. Women are implicitly expected to do most childcare work, yet that work is also undervalued. I don't think teachers should have returned to unsafe conditions, but the fact that schools are the last priority of our society is the problem.

You just equated schools with child care. School is not childcare. You are undervaluing education when you do this. Hire a nanny.

Give it a rest already! No one is devaluing education while acknowledging that children are CARED FOR while at school. Honestly, all you people who argue about this are the dumbest people on DCUM, and that's saying something.

+100
There are still quite a number of people out there, both men and women, who are uncomfortable with working mothers. To them, this is a sort of punishment working mothers deserve. Tsk, tsk, schools aren't daycare, you have a lot of nerve working full-time when you chose to get pregnant. It's a very unforgiving bunch. Perhaps the economy needs a day without working mothers. Don't spend a single dime of your paycheck to show we're part of the economy.

No one even remotely implied that. You’re overreacting.

DP, but that mindset is so inherent to "school is not childcare." That phrase seethes with hostility towards working mothers. PP is spot-on.

We're all under mental stress. Let's take a breath and embrace the thought that not everyone is out to get us or seething poisonous thoughts towards us. Sometimes banana is just a banana. Nobody is suggesting that working mothers deserve punishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read the piece that talked about a societal betrayal of families and children, and that's how I have felt since this all began. Women are implicitly expected to do most childcare work, yet that work is also undervalued. I don't think teachers should have returned to unsafe conditions, but the fact that schools are the last priority of our society is the problem.

You just equated schools with child care. School is not childcare. You are undervaluing education when you do this. Hire a nanny.

Give it a rest already! No one is devaluing education while acknowledging that children are CARED FOR while at school. Honestly, all you people who argue about this are the dumbest people on DCUM, and that's saying something.

+100
There are still quite a number of people out there, both men and women, who are uncomfortable with working mothers. To them, this is a sort of punishment working mothers deserve. Tsk, tsk, schools aren't daycare, you have a lot of nerve working full-time when you chose to get pregnant. It's a very unforgiving bunch. Perhaps the economy needs a day without working mothers. Don't spend a single dime of your paycheck to show we're part of the economy.

Yup.

I’m done thinking small. We all should work less and still have enough to support a family.

How do you propose this happens? Should the government force companies to pay hire wages for less work?
How much "less" should people work? Should everyone work less or just mothers?
How much is enough to support a family?
Should single, childless people also work less and still make enough to support a family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

Those of us without kids are already picking up the slack in many offices. I've been doing the work of 1.75 FTE since last April. My coworkers know and say thank you, but I don't have a choice.

Yeah. But it's kind of interesting to see that some women have higher standards for childless women than they do for their own husbands. You need help? Start asking your DH for help. It's really sort of sexist that they expect other women to work for free just so their DH can maintain his lifestyle of doing nothing. I'm just not interested in doing additional work because a woman bred with a loser and she doesn't care to fix her household.

NP. +100 "Where is my village?" is always code for "I expect other women to chip in with my domestic labor for free."

This!

I don't think that's always true. Our group of friends is a village. If someone needs their kid picked up from school, they text and one of us will do it. When one family gets sick, the others chip in and help out in whatever way possible. When someone has a baby, we plan a meal train. When someone has surgery, we take turns keeping their kids. And so on and so forth. Yes, some people give more than others and some take more than others. But I figure in the end it'll either even out or I'll be grateful that I was able to give more than I got or that I had friends who were willing to give when I couldn't. We've been through deaths, divorces, affairs, deployments, etc. We will help each other out at the drop of a hat and we each have our strengths. The one with the minivan ends up picking kids up more often. We have a huge kitchen and love to cook so we end up making meals more. Another family has more kids so they're always willing to add another to the mix. Both moms and dads step up. I honestly didn't think this existed until I moved to this neighborhood, but it can.

heart emoji

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

Those of us without kids are already picking up the slack in many offices. I've been doing the work of 1.75 FTE since last April. My coworkers know and say thank you, but I don't have a choice.

Yeah. But it's kind of interesting to see that some women have higher standards for childless women than they do for their own husbands. You need help? Start asking your DH for help. It's really sort of sexist that they expect other women to work for free just so their DH can maintain his lifestyle of doing nothing. I'm just not interested in doing additional work because a woman bred with a loser and she doesn't care to fix her household.

NP. +100 "Where is my village?" is always code for "I expect other women to chip in with my domestic labor for free."

This!

I don't think that's always true. Our group of friends is a village. If someone needs their kid picked up from school, they text and one of us will do it. When one family gets sick, the others chip in and help out in whatever way possible. When someone has a baby, we plan a meal train. When someone has surgery, we take turns keeping their kids. And so on and so forth. Yes, some people give more than others and some take more than others. But I figure in the end it'll either even out or I'll be grateful that I was able to give more than I got or that I had friends who were willing to give when I couldn't. We've been through deaths, divorces, affairs, deployments, etc. We will help each other out at the drop of a hat and we each have our strengths. The one with the minivan ends up picking kids up more often. We have a huge kitchen and love to cook so we end up making meals more. Another family has more kids so they're always willing to add another to the mix. Both moms and dads step up. I honestly didn't think this existed until I moved to this neighborhood, but it can.

It sounds like a bunch of family with kids helping each other out. This seems fair. BUT, to expect childless people to do childcare for you when you are not doing anything for them in return is unfair. I am speaking as a mom here.

Your spouse who you chose to have children with is your partner in parenting. You can choose to have someone provide you childcare in exchange for money. But, you should not have any expectation of the community - ILs, family, neighbors, coworkers and friends - provide you childcare for free. If someone does provide you childcare for free, be extremely grateful because this is not their responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

Those of us without kids are already picking up the slack in many offices. I've been doing the work of 1.75 FTE since last April. My coworkers know and say thank you, but I don't have a choice.

Yeah. But it's kind of interesting to see that some women have higher standards for childless women than they do for their own husbands. You need help? Start asking your DH for help. It's really sort of sexist that they expect other women to work for free just so their DH can maintain his lifestyle of doing nothing. I'm just not interested in doing additional work because a woman bred with a loser and she doesn't care to fix her household.

NP. +100 "Where is my village?" is always code for "I expect other women to chip in with my domestic labor for free."

This!

I don't think that's always true. Our group of friends is a village. If someone needs their kid picked up from school, they text and one of us will do it. When one family gets sick, the others chip in and help out in whatever way possible. When someone has a baby, we plan a meal train. When someone has surgery, we take turns keeping their kids. And so on and so forth. Yes, some people give more than others and some take more than others. But I figure in the end it'll either even out or I'll be grateful that I was able to give more than I got or that I had friends who were willing to give when I couldn't. We've been through deaths, divorces, affairs, deployments, etc. We will help each other out at the drop of a hat and we each have our strengths. The one with the minivan ends up picking kids up more often. We have a huge kitchen and love to cook so we end up making meals more. Another family has more kids so they're always willing to add another to the mix. Both moms and dads step up. I honestly didn't think this existed until I moved to this neighborhood, but it can.

How are you doing this during COVID? And you simply described “friendship”. We all have this.

First of all, I never said we were doing all those things during COVID. The comment to which I replied had nothing to do with COVID, it said the entire village idea was someone's expectation that others do things for them for free. If what I'm describing is friendship, then describe a village to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have children at home, think of ways to help those who do.

I take birth control so I don't have to do this. Why am I being asked to help parents (for free) but parents aren't being asked to help me? Do my laundry and pay my electricity bill, then I'll watch your kids. Every time someone says "but community" they're expecting help without giving anything back. Paint my living room if community is so important to you.

Those of us without kids are already picking up the slack in many offices. I've been doing the work of 1.75 FTE since last April. My coworkers know and say thank you, but I don't have a choice.

Yeah. But it's kind of interesting to see that some women have higher standards for childless women than they do for their own husbands. You need help? Start asking your DH for help. It's really sort of sexist that they expect other women to work for free just so their DH can maintain his lifestyle of doing nothing. I'm just not interested in doing additional work because a woman bred with a loser and she doesn't care to fix her household.

NP. +100 "Where is my village?" is always code for "I expect other women to chip in with my domestic labor for free."

This!

I don't think that's always true. Our group of friends is a village. If someone needs their kid picked up from school, they text and one of us will do it. When one family gets sick, the others chip in and help out in whatever way possible. When someone has a baby, we plan a meal train. When someone has surgery, we take turns keeping their kids. And so on and so forth. Yes, some people give more than others and some take more than others. But I figure in the end it'll either even out or I'll be grateful that I was able to give more than I got or that I had friends who were willing to give when I couldn't. We've been through deaths, divorces, affairs, deployments, etc. We will help each other out at the drop of a hat and we each have our strengths. The one with the minivan ends up picking kids up more often. We have a huge kitchen and love to cook so we end up making meals more. Another family has more kids so they're always willing to add another to the mix. Both moms and dads step up. I honestly didn't think this existed until I moved to this neighborhood, but it can.

It sounds like a bunch of family with kids helping each other out. This seems fair. BUT, to expect childless people to do childcare for you when you are not doing anything for them in return is unfair. I am speaking as a mom here.

Your spouse who you chose to have children with is your partner in parenting. You can choose to have someone provide you childcare in exchange for money. But, you should not have any expectation of the community - ILs, family, neighbors, coworkers and friends - provide you childcare for free. If someone does provide you childcare for free, be extremely grateful because this is not their responsibility.

We have a full-time nanny and also a maid. I don't expect anyone to provide childcare, or any service for me, for free. Ever. My in-laws and my parents have never done anything other than dog sat for us, and even that was only once (otherwise we hire someone to do it). My husband is a total equal parent and partner.

I don't think childless people should have to do ANYTHING for people who choose to have kids. I never expect a co-worker who doesn't have kids to pick up my slack, nor would I expect a childless friend to help me out by making meals. When people say it takes a village, it seems to me that they are referencing their village of other families with children who help each other out. Anyone who thinks a village consists of families with children forcing childless people to help them out for free doesn't understand the term.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think that the current level of animus would be directed at teachers if most teachers were men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think that the current level of animus would be directed at teachers if most teachers were men.

My kids' teachers are about 1/2 and 1/2