New York Times Primal Scream Project - discuss...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes it’s the woman’s fault that they’re not shouting, screaming or twisting the arm of their spouses. You know...the person they married.

I’m tired of these articles harassing everyone else for ‘help’ including the government and your neighbors but not the sperm donor you decided to have kids with.

It’s your fault. It’s his fault (or hers if your partner is female). Deal with it.

DP, but what if neither spouse has a particularly flexible employer? And neither earns much money? Then what? Or what if the women do shout, scream, and/or arm-twist to no effect? Are you going to dump on them when they end up divorced? Is no one worthy of praise but #bootstraps?

The pandemic has underscored how poorly our society supports anyone who's not wealthy. I guess that's our fault inasmuch as we vote for people, but I think you know it's a lot more complicated than that.

I'd say when two people get married they need to make decisions based on life circumstances. Both of you going hard in inflexible careers - then you need to be damned certain that those careers are financially lucrative enough to pay for care for one or more of your kids.

As for the money, there's a whole ecosystem of people who have multiple kids and can't afford them. That's also a choice.

What happens if you get laid off, your hours are reduced, your spouse becomes abusive, or you have a catastrophic medical event that bankrupts you? Can you give the kid back? In your scenario only the affluent would have be able to have kids, because everyday life would intervene for us regular folks. Lost that job and blew through your savings because of a worldwide pandemic? Should have known that would happen when you conceived that kid 11 years ago! No fair expecting any sort of social safety net--that wouldn't be taking responsibility for yourself and your choices!

Give me a *&^%ing break.

Right? I'm the PP being quoted, and to that I would add: what if you both choose flexible, reasonably well-paying careers, and then the pandemic hits and your once flexible jobs become less so thanks to COVID-related work? And what if you budgeted for, say, five years of childcare but not for when your kids would need full-time care once they hit school age?

We're in a freaking pandemic, and you STILL have zero empathy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well I suppose with all that paid help you have, you would have the time to develop friendships and help each other out. Most people can’t afford nannies and maids and all the other privileges I’m sure you have living in a wealthy, likely white upper class neighborhood that enable you to spend time developing close friendships with other families. I bet community spread is also low where you live. Must be nice to be part of the privileged one percent and judge others who make different choices based on their own options.

You need to chill out. I never said I was judging people. Seriously, your reading comprehension is so poor you can't even figure out what I'm actually saying. I think anyone who expects free/unpaid childcare or other help from others is nothing but a moocher.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think that the current level of animus would be directed at teachers if most teachers were men.

Ha ha, I think more the inverse. If the COVID childcare burden was personally and disproportionately borne by working men, we would have been back full-time, in person, nationwide, no exceptions, by last June.

You know I'm right.

[Anonymous]

If you all need a palate cleanser after the typical unending DCUM "but here's why it's really your fault lady" conversation (I do!), it is refreshing to read a take from a non-cis woman (Roxane Gay) and commentators who don't feel the need to tie themselves into knots to defend and normalize this behavior:

https://twitter.com/rgay/status/1358890790781521922

I don’t understand the incentive for heterosexuality. In this article, the husband comes home, sees his wife working and helping their daughter with autism attend school. She is harried. He points out that his wife needs to help the daughter respond to her teacher.

He DOESNT JUMP IN TO HELP. He just gets his snack. That is grounds for divorce. The women in this piece are working and parenting while their husbands work and shirk parenting.

Ditch these men. There is absolutely no incentive to stay with them.

I’m confused—are the women who don’t ditch these men (for whatever reason) at fault or no? Because there are mixed messages happening here. On the one hand you have people saying they’re suffering and on the other I’m hearing people tell them it’s ultimately their own fault if they are suffering because they should “fix their household” or leave the husband or whatever.

Huh? I don't get this take at all. She is saying this behavior is unreasonable, patently unfair and reason for divorce. And it is NOT the DW's job to manage her husband so well that it doesn't happen or happens less in the first place. And the only reason that it happens so frequently and many women put up with this or normalize it is sexism/heteronormativity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you all need a palate cleanser after the typical unending DCUM "but here's why it's really your fault lady" conversation (I do!), it is refreshing to read a take from a non-cis woman (Roxane Gay) and commentators who don't feel the need to tie themselves into knots to defend and normalize this behavior:

https://twitter.com/rgay/status/1358890790781521922

I don’t understand the incentive for heterosexuality. In this article, the husband comes home, sees his wife working and helping their daughter with autism attend school. She is harried. He points out that his wife needs to help the daughter respond to her teacher.

He DOESNT JUMP IN TO HELP. He just gets his snack. That is grounds for divorce. The women in this piece are working and parenting while their husbands work and shirk parenting.

Ditch these men. There is absolutely no incentive to stay with them.

I’m confused—are the women who don’t ditch these men (for whatever reason) at fault or no? Because there are mixed messages happening here. On the one hand you have people saying they’re suffering and on the other I’m hearing people tell them it’s ultimately their own fault if they are suffering because they should “fix their household” or leave the husband or whatever.

Huh? I don't get this take at all. She is saying this behavior is unreasonable, patently unfair and reason for divorce. And it is NOT the DW's job to manage her husband so well that it doesn't happen or happens less in the first place. And the only reason that it happens so frequently and many women put up with this or normalize it is sexism/heteronormativity.

There’s the issue: “many women put up with or normalize it.” What if what’s happening is t “normalizing” it but choosing the less bad of various options? Option 1 being screaming and fighting all the time about it, option 2 being leaving the husband, option 3 being dealing with it as best you can, option 4 being continual disappointment about your marriage? I guess I just hate this vague language about “I would never put up with my husband if he didn’t step up” or “I wouldn’t stand for that” or whatever. I can say that we are all thrown into a complete mess and we are all, stupid and lazy husbands included, trying to deal. I don’t think it’s helpful to criticize women who are just trying to do their best.

[Anonymous]

I flipped my sh!t at work yesterday after I misread a schedule and offered to do preschool pickup duty for my husband (who does it most days) --- while in the preschool car line I got a message from a coworker that I had been scheduled for something at work.

I complained to my boss since I am technically scheduled for more work duties than colleagues and she sent me a 6 point nastygram email saying basically that no one thinks I am pulling my weight (despite having more shifts, the complaint is that I'm not available when off-shift enough)....and directing me to a company covid policy that says if child duties interfere with work than we should make time up later in the day.

I have never once asked them to block out time in my schedule for child care or appointments, I've been dumping it all on my husband. I wish I could go to HR but I know all that would do is put a target on my back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I flipped my sh!t at work yesterday after I misread a schedule and offered to do preschool pickup duty for my husband (who does it most days) --- while in the preschool car line I got a message from a coworker that I had been scheduled for something at work.

I complained to my boss since I am technically scheduled for more work duties than colleagues and she sent me a 6 point nastygram email saying basically that no one thinks I am pulling my weight (despite having more shifts, the complaint is that I'm not available when off-shift enough)....and directing me to a company covid policy that says if child duties interfere with work than we should make time up later in the day.

I have never once asked them to block out time in my schedule for child care or appointments, I've been dumping it all on my husband. I wish I could go to HR but I know all that would do is put a target on my back.

That's awful, I'm so sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes it’s the woman’s fault that they’re not shouting, screaming or twisting the arm of their spouses. You know...the person they married.

I’m tired of these articles harassing everyone else for ‘help’ including the government and your neighbors but not the sperm donor you decided to have kids with.

It’s your fault. It’s his fault (or hers if your partner is female). Deal with it.

DP, but what if neither spouse has a particularly flexible employer? And neither earns much money? Then what? Or what if the women do shout, scream, and/or arm-twist to no effect? Are you going to dump on them when they end up divorced? Is no one worthy of praise but #bootstraps?

The pandemic has underscored how poorly our society supports anyone who's not wealthy. I guess that's our fault inasmuch as we vote for people, but I think you know it's a lot more complicated than that.

I'd say when two people get married they need to make decisions based on life circumstances. Both of you going hard in inflexible careers - then you need to be damned certain that those careers are financially lucrative enough to pay for care for one or more of your kids.

As for the money, there's a whole ecosystem of people who have multiple kids and can't afford them. That's also a choice.

What happens if you get laid off, your hours are reduced, your spouse becomes abusive, or you have a catastrophic medical event that bankrupts you? Can you give the kid back? In your scenario only the affluent would have be able to have kids, because everyday life would intervene for us regular folks. Lost that job and blew through your savings because of a worldwide pandemic? Should have known that would happen when you conceived that kid 11 years ago! No fair expecting any sort of social safety net--that wouldn't be taking responsibility for yourself and your choices!

Give me a *&^%ing break.

What I've learned as an adult that there isn't anything that can't be blamed on women making "bad choices."

In a bad spot as a working mom trying to juggle everything during a pandemic? Should have arranged things differently so you could afford to live on one salary. You're just selfishly working to afford needless luxury goods anyway, just stop buying purses and coffee.

What if you are a SAHM, what if your working spouse divorces you or maybe just dies in a car accident, leaving you financially unstable? Shouldn't have stopped working to day-drink with your mom friends, you should have prepared for this possibiity by continuing to work.

[Anonymous]

^^^^^ this^^^^^^

Enough telling women that no matter what, it’s on them. Their fault. Even if they’re doing everything, it’s their fault for being overwhelmed because they should have “picked a better partner.” Get covid because your babysitter caught it and passed it on? You’re irresponsible for hiring a sitter.

Women cannot shoulder everything, including all the blame. That’s seriously the whole problem. And the depressing part is that on this thread, I’m guessing it’s mostly other women pulling this shit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^^^ this^^^^^^

Enough telling women that no matter what, it’s on them. Their fault. Even if they’re doing everything, it’s their fault for being overwhelmed because they should have “picked a better partner.” Get covid because your babysitter caught it and passed it on? You’re irresponsible for hiring a sitter.

Women cannot shoulder everything, including all the blame. That’s seriously the whole problem. And the depressing part is that on this thread, I’m guessing it’s mostly other women pulling this shit.

Have you heard people talk like this in real life? For example, my friend, who is a SAHM, just had her husband drop the bomb that he's been cheating on her for two years and wants a divorce. No one I know, even in discussions behind her back, has suggested that this is her fault or that she should have kept or job or anything of the sort. I assume many of the people on this board aren't who they represent to be (i.e. it's really a 45-year old loser guy in his mom's basement pretending to be a mom who shoots other moms down), and those who are who they say are just deeply unhappy and miserable in their own life. Maybe there are people who literally say to the face of a working mom, it's your fault your kids got COVID because you shouldn't have gone back to work and gotten a nanny. I guess I'm just glad I don't know any of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^^ this^^^^^^

Enough telling women that no matter what, it’s on them. Their fault. Even if they’re doing everything, it’s their fault for being overwhelmed because they should have “picked a better partner.” Get covid because your babysitter caught it and passed it on? You’re irresponsible for hiring a sitter.

Women cannot shoulder everything, including all the blame. That’s seriously the whole problem. And the depressing part is that on this thread, I’m guessing it’s mostly other women pulling this shit.

Have you heard people talk like this in real life? For example, my friend, who is a SAHM, just had her husband drop the bomb that he's been cheating on her for two years and wants a divorce. No one I know, even in discussions behind her back, has suggested that this is her fault or that she should have kept or job or anything of the sort. I assume many of the people on this board aren't who they represent to be (i.e. it's really a 45-year old loser guy in his mom's basement pretending to be a mom who shoots other moms down), and those who are who they say are just deeply unhappy and miserable in their own life. Maybe there are people who literally say to the face of a working mom, it's your fault your kids got COVID because you shouldn't have gone back to work and gotten a nanny. I guess I'm just glad I don't know any of them.

Well said!!!!