Oldest son has a lot of animosity towards middle son

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've got 3 kids, all teenagers. The oldest and youngest are boys with ADHD/anxiety. We've had lots of therapies and interventions over the years and have worked with great professionals. My older DS has a long history of being cruel and rude to my younger DS. It has nothing to do with how we have parented them or how we treat the kids. It has everything do do with my older DS' personality, ADHD and, especially, his anxiety.

Younger DS' challenges are far more significant than older DS' and older DS is embarrassed by him. Because of his own insecurities, ADHD and desire to 'control' things, older DS lashes out at younger DS. As I've said, we've worked with professionals to address and understand this and we've worked hard at collaborative problem solving. Yet, cruelty and bullying is unacceptable, especially within a family. It's gotten better as the kids have gotten older but we have definitely had to impose and enforce acceptable behaviors. There have been times where they boys have positive interactions, particularly when they're playing video games but I doubt they'll be close as adults. We can, at least, assure our home is supportive and civil.

As a parent of a young adult that has severe social anxiety and had it since 4, imo, it is not the adhd. It is all anxiety, 100% in my ds's case. The need to control is anxiety, embarassed is anxiety. DS is in CBT and takes Lexapro and his relationship with his sister is as if they are best friends now. 3 years ago, it was terrible. DS's anxiety was so off the charts that I was scared one day that he will hurt dd and me. We had a talk, when he calmed down, about how I understand what is causing him these issues, but that simply we can't live afraid in our own house. It came to that point, that he understand that if he continues with this behavior, hewill need to move out. We would have provided resources, but we could not be hostages in our house. DS did not want to be like that, and with work and therapy and meds things started to improve. Now, I have no idea how bad anxiety is with your kid, but my DS was like a war veteran and the world was war zone with danger everywhere. He could not see the world and people as just that.
It seems like you are able to handle your kids and provide help for your ds. I just wanted to post that, imo, it is anxiety, and if your ds is on stimulants, his anxiety is worse, so much worse. Once my DS got his anxiety under control, we realized that he never had adhd.(adhd meds caused the insane breakdowns) All he needed was CBT and anxiety meds. He is now able to enjoy life, understands jokes, teases me.
I did not post to criticize you, just to tell you what worked for us and for DS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would sit down with the oldest and ask him what's wrong that he harbors so much hate or indifference to both his siblings. And that he has to learn to control his emotions, and not overreact to his brother's presence. Some of it is certainly adolescent hormones, but still... what you describe seems over the top.

Honestly he seems to have an issue, OP. High-functioning autism and ADHD can both present with disproportionate emotional reactions to a close family member. In the short period this young man is still under your roof, I would observe him closely, do your research, and possibly have him evaluated, or at least implement strategies suited to what you think ails him.

The bottom line is that he has to understand he cannot treat people with such scorn and disdain. He has to see his siblings for the humans they are, deserving of respect. Is he embarrassed by them, is he desperate to fit in a particular group, and they're a hindrance? You need to have long conversations with him.

Very true, this autism dynamic is all over one side of the family. it’s impossible to mask when you live with someone, and the result is being overwhelmed, lashing out, no ability to connect w people, looks self centered.

Glad the 14 yo is so mature. He may even see through things entirely, even better. Lay low, pick your battles with asd TA,ily member.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have 3 boys - 16, 14, 11.

Our oldest has always been resentful and mean to his middle brother since practically the day he was born. I think the kid would have been happier as an only child.

The actual fighting has stopped as they have gotten older, and they do have their good and brotherly moments, but 16yo never wants to spend any time with 14yo and you can see the rage burning even at dinner or in the car when 14yo is talking.

16yo told his dad today that he really doesn't like his brother and thinks he's annoying and nerdy. 16yo is very social and 14yo is a homebody, but he's not nerdy and is super cool and laid back. He just doesn't care about the materialistic stuff that 16yo cares about or the the ego or need to prove himself.

My biggest worry is that this is going to affect 14yo in the long run emotionally. He definitely does not give signs that it bothers him and he teases older ds sometimes in retaliation and it enrages 16yo. We step in when we need to, but we have stopped doing it as much once 14yo showed he could give it right back AND we realized it made him feel like he needed to be rescued.

I know sibs can be like this but this seems a little intense and over the top for sibling dislike. He is neutral about 11. 11yo and 14yo get along great. 11yo also stands up to 16yo. It's a weird dynamic.

I grew up in a house full of girls. I don't recall hating them like 16yo seems to hate his brother most of the time.

I think this is very possible. I think there are certain children/personalities that are truly better off as only children.
I have such a child. Never expressed any interest in a sibling. Very happy being the center of our attention and I think would be really be actually unhappy if they did have to share.

[Anonymous]

Good luck OP. I think you’ve gotten some good ideas here about what sort of therapy for your older son may be helpful. I’m not sure why your post drew out so many hateful people seeking to attack you rather than help. You just have to ignore all the posters projecting their issues onto you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've got 3 kids, all teenagers. The oldest and youngest are boys with ADHD/anxiety. We've had lots of therapies and interventions over the years and have worked with great professionals. My older DS has a long history of being cruel and rude to my younger DS. It has nothing to do with how we have parented them or how we treat the kids. It has everything do do with my older DS' personality, ADHD and, especially, his anxiety.

Younger DS' challenges are far more significant than older DS' and older DS is embarrassed by him. Because of his own insecurities, ADHD and desire to 'control' things, older DS lashes out at younger DS. As I've said, we've worked with professionals to address and understand this and we've worked hard at collaborative problem solving. Yet, cruelty and bullying is unacceptable, especially within a family. It's gotten better as the kids have gotten older but we have definitely had to impose and enforce acceptable behaviors. There have been times where they boys have positive interactions, particularly when they're playing video games but I doubt they'll be close as adults. We can, at least, assure our home is supportive and civil.

As a parent of a young adult that has severe social anxiety and had it since 4, imo, it is not the adhd. It is all anxiety, 100% in my ds's case. The need to control is anxiety, embarassed is anxiety. DS is in CBT and takes Lexapro and his relationship with his sister is as if they are best friends now. 3 years ago, it was terrible. DS's anxiety was so off the charts that I was scared one day that he will hurt dd and me. We had a talk, when he calmed down, about how I understand what is causing him these issues, but that simply we can't live afraid in our own house. It came to that point, that he understand that if he continues with this behavior, hewill need to move out. We would have provided resources, but we could not be hostages in our house. DS did not want to be like that, and with work and therapy and meds things started to improve. Now, I have no idea how bad anxiety is with your kid, but my DS was like a war veteran and the world was war zone with danger everywhere. He could not see the world and people as just that.
It seems like you are able to handle your kids and provide help for your ds. I just wanted to post that, imo, it is anxiety, and if your ds is on stimulants, his anxiety is worse, so much worse. Once my DS got his anxiety under control, we realized that he never had adhd.(adhd meds caused the insane breakdowns) All he needed was CBT and anxiety meds. He is now able to enjoy life, understands jokes, teases me.
I did not post to criticize you, just to tell you what worked for us and for DS.

I'm the PP you're responding to. For us, it's a combination of the ADHD and anxiety. Even when his anxiety is well controlled, older DS struggles to self-edit and to self-limit. We've worked really hard on getting him to pause before speaking and to be mindful when he's on 'auto pilot'. It impacts all of his relationships, not just with his younger brother. My DH (their father) also has ADHD and sometimes struggles in this area, especially when he's having an emotional response to something. Anxiety, of course, is also a huge component and, together with the ADHD, can be a horrible combo. Thanks for posting.

[Anonymous]

WTF there are a lot of sick, damaged ppl in this threat who act out their aggression to strangers b/c of whatever issues they had with their own parents. I don't see OP attaching anyone, rather some ppl jumping on her with their projections.

OP, you sound like you care and are trying to find a balanced way forward. I think individual therapy for oldest son is paramount.

[Anonymous]

What’s wrong with being nerdy that it’s an excuse to hate someone? I know it’s off topic but I don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My family had similar dynamics as in younger two siblings getting along well, oldest neutral to the youngest, but I was like your oldest towards the middle. NOw that I am away from all of them physically, I can now understand the part of the reasons why I’ve acted the way it was came from mother’s constant criticism and denial about anything I did. It was so hurtful. Maybe there was a reason for mom to be so hard on me, but I was very much done with mother by age 16. BY then. I’ve grown not to trust her (I loved dad but if he intervened between me and sibling, mom got upset with dad). I probably needed her attention and care when I was little but not when I was at 16. Why would I listen to someone I don’t trust?

With COVID, it gave all of us a legit reason not to see each other. So, no communication what’s so ever between me and the rest of family now. The siblings and mom are fully engaged with each other but I am excluded intentionally or unintentionally from them. I think it is true about what a poster above says, when your oldest leaves home, he will likely distance himself from OP and the siblings.

What I would have liked from my parents back then? Well, first stop criticizing me, for once be positive and supportive for me (dad always, mom never), stop negative campaigns on me in front of siblings/extended family/mutual friends, be fair in how you treat siblings because mom did not treat them like she treated me. I grew up thinking “why always me, me , me” (I take that maybe I was a difficult child, that difficult child was the first born and mom being a young inexperienced mother, she needed to act the way she did).

Now, it doesn’t matter because I learnt a hard lesson over the winter holiday just before COVID, how mom and the siblings are viewing me in a extreme negative way. I don’t have any recourse with them, but OP and oldest son may be able to salvage and renew a relationship. Good luck.

Anonymous wrote:I don't mean to hurt your feelings. Maybe you should seek therapy because, perhaps you are doing something or behaving in a way that contributed to the existence of these problems? Good luck to you too, sincerely.

Oh, no offense taken. I could understand that perhaps my behavior at younger age may have contributed to mom constantly on the defensive side, but after years of mom building up this notion within the family/extended family/her mutual friends that “everting the oldest does” is always resulting in a nuisance and inconvenience to them (middle/youngest never does these things but you do!) feeds into cementing the “distanced relationship”. At this time, just like I am emotionally close off myself to them, so are they to me. Now, the grandkids (my kids and siblings) are in the picture, sad to see that my kid is always excluded from the cousins (cousin meetup has to be still coordinated thru parents. Cousins themselves get along well. Unfortunately no cousin on my spouse side).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am somewhat disturbed as you and your oldest both seem to view being nerdy as something negative.
I guess being a bit less judgmental could help?

I agree with this. It sounds as if you don't like either one of these kids a whole lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had a situation like this and I truly blame my parents. I think my sister was filled with a lot of anger because honestly both my parents were narcissists and were super focused on themselves. Then they would play us all off each other and play favorites. It was just constant tension. My sister directed a lot of her frustration at me, because when you're in that situation, you cant direct the anger at the narcissists or parents, because it's not safe, so you have to go for the easier target. I think my parents wereboth so self involved and they often used the "We'll just let them figure it out" cop out. They should have gotten involved, for both our sakes, but I think they thought it was too much work and would rather sit back and just watch the show. I also think they enjoyed us fighting, in a way, because when we were united as siblings, it was kind of like we were a team and our parents were the other team, whereas when we were arguing, we had no unity and no fighting power with them.

All these things should be considered and I think you should talk to a therapist for EACH OF YOU. These dysfunctional situations never just randomly happen in a vacuum. And they take time and effort to unpack. But you can either do it now, or let your kids do it on their own when they're 30 and starting to really resent how you handled things.

I could have written this. Clearly someone else grew up in a family just like mine and came to the exact same conclusions. I also hold my parents responsible for the toxic situation between my siblings and myself and for not shutting down the inter-sibling abuse. They refused to be parents and refused to protect me because it was inconvenient and uncomfortable.

We have all had therapy as adults and have okay relationships with each other now, but damaged relationships with our parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What’s wrong with being nerdy that it’s an excuse to hate someone? I know it’s off topic but I don’t get it.

All the nerds on dcum are taking this personally
In reality being a nerd covers for some unfortunate characteristics: socially awkwardness and lack of physical attractiveness, to name a few. I would also prefer for my child not to be a nerd.
In this particular case, i think OP's eldest is calling his brother a nerd only because he realizes that the middle one doesn't really have to do much to be accepted: which for him is not well deserved. They just have different temperaments and probably values. I can see it being hard for any parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s wrong with being nerdy that it’s an excuse to hate someone? I know it’s off topic but I don’t get it.

All the nerds on dcum are taking this personally
In reality being a nerd covers for some unfortunate characteristics: socially awkwardness and lack of physical attractiveness, to name a few. I would also prefer for my child not to be a nerd.
In this particular case, i think OP's eldest is calling his brother a nerd only because he realizes that the middle one doesn't really have to do much to be accepted: which for him is not well deserved. They just have different temperaments and probably values. I can see it being hard for any parent.

The older one sounds like the the social butterfly, its the middle one who is the "homebody" so I'm not sure that the above assessment is correct based on the limited information we have. Sounds like the older uses "nerdy" as a catch all to avoid using other words that would probably get him in more trouble like calling his weird homebody brother a "loser". But, OP finds the middle one to be "super cool and laid back" so my guess is she's most like the middle one and has a soft spot for him. There's just a lot being left out of this that its hard to understand what the real source of friction is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My sibling and I were like this and are parents were like you and didn't care. You need to stand up and protect the younger boys and set a good example. You both also need to spend more 1-1 time with each child, especially the older one as he's clearly not getting his needs met.

Of course the OP cares! How could you think otherwise? Did you even read the same opening post I did. Good luck, O{!

[Anonymous]

The older one sounds like the the social butterfly, its the middle one who is the "homebody" so I'm not sure that the above assessment is correct based on the limited information we have

Yes, and to be a social butterfly takes a lot of navigation and strategy: it's "work".
But the "homebody" just shows up occasionally, when he wants, and everyone thinks he's cool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the youngest of three. I think it is a bad number. There is often a two against one dynamic. My other siblings are closer. It's hurtful.

I dont know what to say about your situation. Just saying three is rough.

+1

Any odd number is rough, there is no way around it.